Spirituality
20 Jul 18
20 Jul 18
1 edit
Ok KJ. I'll skip the formalities and dive right in. Annihilationism, a.k.a. "Conditional Immortality" vs. Eternal Torment, a.k.a. "ECT" or Eternal Conscious Torment.
Point by point. I'll start with a verse that some allege supports Conditional Immortality. Then you can refute it and give me a verse that others say supports eternal torment. This can't go on forever because there are not endless relevant verses for either of us.
Let's see what we think when the dust settles. I am not a card-carrying annihilationist but for the sake of the debate, I will argue in favor of it.
Matt 7:13
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
The Greek word apÅleian translated as "destruction" literally means destruction. It comes from the Greek apollumi which means to utterly destroy and relates to perishing and certain death.
Obviously a translation of "torture" or "endless pain without dying" is out of place here.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyI keep asking this question but nobody seems to know, much like the idea of going to heaven. People say going to heaven all the time but when I ask were does the Bible say anyone goes to heaven nobody can answer.
Ok KJ. I'll skip the formalities and dive right in. Annihilationism, a.k.a. "Conditional Immortality" vs. Eternal Torment, a.k.a. "ECT" or Eternal Conscious Torment.
Point by point. I'll start with a verse that some allege supports Conditional Immortality. Then you can refute it and give me a verse that others say supports eternal torment. This ...[text shortened]... h.
Obviously a translation of "torture" or "endless pain without dying" is out of place here.
What is conditional immortality? It seems that the assumption is that the soul is immortal. Is that in the Bible somewhere?
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyI'm going to insert a few verses I already used in another thread "Not blowing smoke"
Ok KJ. I'll skip the formalities and dive right in. Annihilationism, a.k.a. "Conditional Immortality" vs. Eternal Torment, a.k.a. "ECT" or Eternal Conscious Torment.
Point by point. I'll start with a verse that some allege supports Conditional Immortality. Then you can refute it and give me a verse that others say supports eternal torment. This ...[text shortened]... h.
Obviously a translation of "torture" or "endless pain without dying" is out of place here.
for your review. A point in all scripture discussions is what does the Word say, it is
completely possible to find "a" verse on some topic and build an entire religion on it!
Doing that without the rest of scripture, it could easily be taken out of place to support
something that the rest of scripture doesn't really support.
All scripture needs to be looked at with all other scripture, taking just a single chapter
alone could be bad, a single paragraph alone could be bad, a single word equally bad,
and as some here have done, they have taken words that are not even in scripture, to
replace what is, then turn around argue against the new words instead. So I would
like to start by saying if it isn't the scriptures, why should I agrue against it, it isn't there.
Sticking to what is in scripture I'm using English Standard Version and pulling text online
out of Bible Gateway. All of the verses I am quoting should be from that version, and if I
accidently grabbed another without thinking sorry a head of time, my bad.
One of the things that those who think the suffering of Hell is going to be temporary
argue that the duration will only be as long it takes to destroy something. If all of the
verses that speak to this end said that, I'd go along with that view. The sad thing is I can
only imagine many sinners would like that idea, do what they will and it will be over with
at some point in time when destruction is complete.
Yet, what does the Word say, in Matthew we see two verses that talk about Hell. One
speaks to why it came to be, it was created for the devil and his angles, and eternal
life will last as long as the punishment both are eternal, once started there is no end,
thus the word eternal is used to describe the duration for both.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So God is love is another reason why people don't believe that God would send someone
to Hell. I submit to you that because God is love, and God is good, that punishment for
sin and wickedness is the only reaction He could have. A good God loving God who
could see the horror of evil and wickedness taking place and remain indifferent isn't good
or loving.
The point of God showing us love now, compassion now, can only be done due to His
long suffering. Right now all sinners stand condemned right now, yet God holds back His
judgment giving us time to turn to Him and repent, without His long suffering it would be
over for all of us.
We should not forget we get exposed to horrible sin from time to time and it repulses us,
God doesn't miss a single act, He is aware of every evil word spoken, every wicked
thought, all of our sins are ever before Him. When He lets go against the evil in this
universe, there will be no mercy, and no mercy from the living God who lives forever
and ever, not a good place to be. Yet many of us are storing up for themselves wrath
from an angry God, laughing at Him, making fun of Him. All of this while at the same
time God gives all the air for each breath we take, every sunrise is from Him, all the good
we have comes from Him, but the ungrateful sinners are only piling up crimes against a
Holy God, there will be no excuse, no place to hide, no one to stand between us and
God since Jesus was rejected and at some point even the door to Jesus' grace is going
to be shut.
Romans 2:5
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Revelation 14:10
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @rajk999Matthew 3:2
I keep asking this question but nobody seems to know, much like the idea of going to heaven. People say going to heaven all the time but when I ask were does the Bible say anyone goes to heaven nobody can answer.
What is conditional immortality? It seems that the assumption is that the soul is immortal. Is that in the Bible somewhere?
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Never really gave that much thought, but I'd say this could be what some us use for that.
It is God's Kingdom, where God is, that would be the heaven I seek.
21 Jul 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @kellyjayI was planning on doing this verse by verse with discussion on each. You skipped my verse and went straight into all the verses you have. That's fine, but...
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Anyway.
The verse above only says the fire is eternal. So I have no reason to even address it.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Yes, you have something here. However, if one's existence is ended--thus causing a permanent and irreconcilable disconnect from God--could that not be considered a punishment that lasts eternally?
Romans 2:5
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
This one says nothing about eternal conscious torture.
Revelation 14:10
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
I guess you meant to include verse 11 where it talks about the smoke rising forever and the punished not having rest, day or night. A) The smoke of the fire rises forever, but does that necessarily mean the torture lasts forever? B) And even if it does, this speaks of a specific 144,000--worshipers of the "beast and its image."
Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
And again this speaks of a fire that burns eternally. Not a soul that roasts eternally.
----
So getting back to my verse. It speaks of total destruction. Not eternal pain and suffering. Let's add to it, John 3:16 itself. Those who believe will not perish but have eternal life. Again we see a finality here, an end to life as opposed to an eternal life. This, again, does not depict existence as eternal, for the wicked.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyMatthew 25:46
I was planning on doing this verse by verse with discussion on each. You skipped my verse and went straight into all the verses you have. That's fine, but...
Anyway.
The verse above only says the fire is eternal. So I have no reason to even address it.
[b]Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into e ...[text shortened]... opposed to an eternal life. This, again, does not depict existence as eternal, for the wicked.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
"Yes, you have something here. However, if one's existence is ended--thus causing a permanent and irreconcilable disconnect from God--could that not be considered a punishment that lasts eternally?"
I think you are reading something into this passaged that isn't there. The eternal Hell
isn't a place where they are permanently and irreconcilably disconnected from God, what
is said in Revelation that God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of His anger
is going to cause them to be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy
angels in the presence of the Lamb. Again, reading something into scripture where the
tormented are no longer there, but just the smoke of that fire alone, that is adding to the
Word for just wishful thinking sake.
Do you have a translation where it says "eternal conscious torture" at all?
Romans 2:5 was written informing that we are storing up wrath against us when God's
judgment is revealed.
Show me with specific text if you would your justification that all of these verses that
say the punishment is eternal, means that the people being punished are not there
any longer for the punishment?
What you are doing again, is adding to the text a wishful thinking and reaching for
something that isn't there. A temporary punishment till you gone is not an eternal one,
since the punishment ends as soon as you do. If being removed from existence is the
punishment, there are plenty of ways of saying that making that point clear, instead of
just hoped for.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeDestruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.
'These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @kellyjayBut a verse you cited does say "away from the presence of the Lord," does it not? The verse you cited from Revelation, again, speaks of a specific 144,000 people who worshiped the beast and its image.
I think you are reading something into this passaged that isn't there. The eternal Hell
isn't a place where they are permanently and irreconcilably disconnected from God, what
is said in Revelation that God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of His anger
is going to cause them to be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy
an ...[text shortened]... t just the smoke of that fire alone, that is adding to the
Word for just wishful thinking sake.
Do you have a translation where it says "eternal conscious torture" at all?
You are defending the position of ECT. Torture can't be torture if you're unconscious and unable to feel the effect of it. Right?
21 Jul 18
KJ
So far you haven't addressed my verses. You keep saying I'm reading something into this or that verse. But it would only seem that way if you didn't also consider all the NT verses that speak specifically of utter destruction and not torture. The reason a proponent of conditional immortality would seemingly "read" stuff into your verses is because the person reads your verses, already with the understanding from all the other verses that destruction means destruction--not torture.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyTorture is not in the scripture why would I address it?
KJ
So far you haven't addressed my verses. You keep saying I'm reading something into this or that verse. But it would only seem that way if you didn't also consider all the NT verses that speak specifically of utter destruction and not torture. The reason a proponent of conditional immortality would seemingly "read" stuff into your verses is beca ...[text shortened]... ith the understanding from all the other verses that destruction means destruction--not torture.
I will get back to you on the other point shortly, a little later today.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyYou are asking me to defend against a word not used in scripture I already told you I didn't
But a verse you cited does say "away from the presence of the Lord," does it not? The verse you cited from Revelation, again, speaks of a specific 144,000 people who worshiped the beast and its image.
[b]Do you have a translation where it says "eternal conscious torture" at all?
You are defending the position of ECT. Torture can't be torture if you're unconscious and unable to feel the effect of it. Right?[/b]
feel the need to defend against something not there.
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21 Jul 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyDude, I was agreeing with you. (While simultaneously showing you up with a more serendipitously selected passage).
Destruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.
Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
21 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyLOL .. good luck to you. Most people on this side of the issue have discussed this with KJ and he cannot see the flaw in his reasoning.
KJ
So far you haven't addressed my verses. You keep saying I'm reading something into this or that verse. But it would only seem that way if you didn't also consider all the NT verses that speak specifically of utter destruction and not torture. The reason a proponent of conditional immortality would seemingly "read" stuff into your verses is beca ...[text shortened]... ith the understanding from all the other verses that destruction means destruction--not torture.
Two points that he cannot grasp-
Eternal punishment does not mean eternal torment
The Lake of Fire does not mean eternal torment.