Originally posted by KellyJayAs I pointed out abiogenesis is not equivalent to 'the evolutionary argument'.
I called it the evolutionary argument because that was what came to
me while I read it!
You do not see it?
No I don't.
I believe life goes through changes, just not the degree others do. Think about this, and apply it to dead dirt or some other non-living substance, it just happened and not only did the form appear, it became alive! You have some record of that occuring, you have witnessed that, or is it just believed?
Kelly
Yes we have a record and yes I have witnessed that.
But as I said, everything in the universe that has ever happened - 'just happened'. I know you personally cant stand the idea and would rather believe that it 'just got done by God' but there is not that much difference when you really think about it.
You clearly singled out evolution as a 'just happened' because you see it as a statistically unlikely event. However you have not shown that to be the case and if you took the time to do some reading you would find that you are totally and utterly wrong.
Originally posted by twhitehead"I'd say the odds that dinosaurs were real is much greater than the
But you are quite happy to call the existence of dinosaurs a fact. So your use of the word faith is entirely relative ie if you don't have what you consider solid evidence then you call it faith. You should have no problem however with me calling it fact. So stop joining any thread that talks about evolution or the age of the earth and saying 'thats just ...[text shortened]... believe you' is nothing more than an intentional attempt to shed doubt on something.
outcomes of your tests are giving us what you think is true, both
may be real too, I have not denied that either."
This is what I said, unless you have some other quote of mine, the
one thing I know about dinosaur fossils that is a fact, is that we have
fossils that we say were dinosaurs. Since we can call whatever we want
a dinosaur I'd say we are getting it right in that regard, whatever they
were, they were that!
With respect to your test results meaning what you think they mean,
that is another subject altogether, the only thing we know for sure
is that you get results, do they mean what you think? I don't know
for sure, I do know you get results, that is factual, I know that you
may be getting it right, or not. You may not have all the data points
required, you may be looking looking at the results of something
other than time that is causing the material you are testing to appear
the way it does, I do not know all the variables, and frankly you do not
either, yet you are willing to accept the findings as factual. It agrees
with your core beliefs so it ust be true.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoI honestly do not think you were following this discussion to even
here we go again... it's been done in the lab, creating living organisms with non-living material.
Now how do you stand in your beliefs? Your position is ridiculous because you are not informed of the really important stuff. The few you know you try to discredit with some failing arguments, that only sound good to your self and your faith friends.
know what or how or why we were discussing evolution, let alone know
where I stand on that subject.
Kelly
Originally posted by snowinscotlandFaith, I have it, you have it, the suicide bomber has it, everyone does
I guess so.
How do you feel about, for example, a suicide bomber? They must have tremendous faith, in order to accept that what they do is right, and 'good' for them. Surely you could not say otherwise.
Yet from another point of view their faith is the problem, it stops them from having a broader (dare I say more enlightened) perspective.
to a degree it isn't always about God. That said, where and how we live
we do so by faith, we believe the universe to be thus and so, therefore
we act upon our beliefs and walk out our own faith. Reality will not
change simply because I believe it to be a certain way, be it created
by God or not, it simple is what it is. If there is an end that does have
God at the bottom of all things people who live out there lives with and
without God will discover that, if not, then our lives will simply go where
they go or not when our lives end.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadMainly beause I get tired of people telling what they believe to be
Why do you keep on repeating these same old tired meaningless phrases. I thought we had already agreed that man doesn't know anything, he is only guessing. Why do you keep on focusing on the age of the earth as your chief guess? Why do you try so hard to claim that there are 'facts' and there are 'guesses' and that whatever you believe is 'fact' and what anyone else believes is a 'guess'?
true is factual, when they do not know, they only believe. The
argument is not for me that I'm getting the age right and you are
getting it wrong, but what is it we are doing! You can accept as a fact,
I don't care, but it isn't, it is what you want it to be, that does not
make it a fact.
It is bad when simply disagreeing on what the data really is can get
you called a liar, or called stupid, or an number of put downs. Watch
the tone of those that want to call the age of the universe at least
whatever it is they believe it to be, a factual thing. If you ever had
to wonder why people don't voice disagreement in print, the answer
can be found here at the site.
Kelly
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Originally posted by twhitehead"As I pointed out abiogenesis is not equivalent to 'the evolutionary argument'."[/b]
As I pointed out abiogenesis is not equivalent to 'the evolutionary argument'.
[b]You do not see it?
No I don't.
I believe life goes through changes, just not the degree others do. Think about this, and apply it to dead dirt or some other non-living substance, it just happened and not only did the form appear, it became alive! You have some took the time to do some reading you would find that you are totally and utterly wrong.
I disagree, but maybe you can tell me how those two are not the same
I'd be willing to listen to your point of view on the matter.
You have witnessed dead dirt come to life?
kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI see perfectly where you stand. As the fanatic stupid american religious type with no decent education besides the teaching of the church. In one hundred post of yours I never saw you say something independent or intelligent. You are so absorbed in your small little world that makes you fell so great that you can't see what's REALLY (in reality) going on.
I honestly do not think you were following this discussion to even
know what or how or why we were discussing evolution, let alone know
where I stand on that subject.
Kelly
Deny the facts, spread your stupid incoherent beliefs, I don't care. You will never gain my respect. As for yours, I never wanted it.
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Originally posted by KellyJayThat is just faith. Do you have such a fossil? Are you looking at it now? How do you know that anyone else has called it a dinosaur fossil? Do you have proof that anyone else has such a fossil? I don't believe you so it is merely faith on your part.
This is what I said, unless you have some other quote of mine, the
one thing I know about dinosaur fossils that is a fact, is that we have
fossils that we say were dinosaurs.
Since we can call whatever we want a dinosaur I'd say we are getting it right in that regard, whatever they were, they were that!
No we cant. The word dinosaur has a very specific meaning and changing it to make something true is just stupid. Its like saying "we can call any number of years 'a billion' therefore however old the earth is we can say it is 'a billion years old'.
With respect to your test results meaning what you think they mean,
that is another subject altogether, the only thing we know for sure
is that you get results, do they mean what you think?
That is where you are wrong. How can we 'know for sure' that we have test results? If I must, as you claim, doubt my eyes when I see a star then why should I not doubt my eyes when I see the computer screen with my 'test results'? What makes one more factual than the other?
I don't know for sure, I do know you get results, that is factual, I know that you may be getting it right, or not. You may not have all the data points required, you may be looking looking at the results of something other than time that is causing the material you are testing to appear the way it does, I do not know all the variables, and frankly you do not either, yet you are willing to accept the findings as factual. It agrees with your core beliefs so it ust be true.
Kelly
The age of the earth is known to be in the billions from far more things than one test. Yes I don't know all the variables, but when I look up at the stars at night and I see billions of galaxies out there then I can draw only one conclusion and that is that the vastness of space exceeds millions of light years and that much of the star light I am seeing has been traveling for millions of years. I could pretend that the night sky is just a painting on a sphere that God put there for my benefit or I can accept the fact that I am seeing real existent stars. The existence of those stars is as factual to me as the existence of a dinosaur fossil. In fact I have personally seen more stars than fossils. Maybe it is all an optical illusion but that is as likely as the possibility that the dinosaur fossil is an optical illusion yet you call the existence of the fossil a 'fact' but refuse to accept the existence of stars.
Originally posted by LivingForJesusWhat is a "thrillion"? Did you mean one trillion? If so, do you realize that 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in a trillion makes no sense? That would denote 100,000% odds, however the 100% is the best possible.
okay in the old testment there we 48 predictions and they all came true in the new testement!!!! that is a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in a thrillion chance of guessin that!!!!
It's like instead of saying that the chance of getting a head on one flip of a fair coin is 50%, you said it's 50,000%.
Finally, if you cannot even express probabilities in a form that is sensical, then wouldn't it be a good idea to strongly suspect the whatever probability you assign to an event?
Originally posted by serigadoWell there you go, you have your little world view all set up to dismiss
I see perfectly where you stand. As the fanatic stupid american religious type with no decent education besides the teaching of the church. In one hundred post of yours I never saw you say something independent or intelligent. You are so absorbed in your small little world that makes you fell so great that you can't see what's REALLY (in reality) going on. ...[text shortened]... erent beliefs, I don't care. You will never gain my respect. As for yours, I never wanted it.
anyone that does not agree with you by belittling them. Good luck
with that.
Kelly
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Originally posted by twhitehead"...and that much of the star light I am seeing has been traveling for millions of years."[/b]
That is just faith. Do you have such a fossil? Are you looking at it now? How do you know that anyone else has called it a dinosaur fossil? Do you have proof that anyone else has such a fossil? I don't believe you so it is merely faith on your part.
[b]Since we can call whatever we want a dinosaur I'd say we are getting it right in that regard, whateve the existence of the fossil a 'fact' but refuse to accept the existence of stars.
No you don't know that the light has been traveling for millions of
years! At best you know the starts are millions of light years away
and that is not the same thing as knowing that the light has been
travelling that long, it only really shows the distance. How they got
where they are, how long they were there, how old the light that is
hitting the earth are not found in the answer how far away they
are, any more than taking a snap shot of a car travelling down
the high way along with getting a readout of its current speed can
tell you where it was a hour ago, or seeing a 50 hour candle being
lit and measuring it and trying to guess how long it was buring.
Kelly
4 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]We can go find one everyone agrees is a fossil, I DO NOT CARE!
That is just faith. Do you have such a fossil? Are you looking at it now? How do you know that anyone else has called it a dinosaur fossil? Do you have proof that anyone else has such a fossil? I don't believe you so it is merely faith on your part.
[b]Since we can call whatever we want a dinosaur I'd say we are getting it right in that regard, whateve the existence of the fossil a 'fact' but refuse to accept the existence of stars.
The point is that they were alive at one time unless you want to make
the claim the earth just molded them out of whatever to look like they
were alive, along with all the non-dinosaur fossils too. I don't care
what they were called, it is not important they were what they were.
Is it faith that they are what we think they are, sure if that makes you
happy? Is it in my estimation something I believe in I do not have an
issue with that, except I do not believe everything that is believed
about them are necessarily true.
Your tests, and looking at the results are in my opinion are not the
same thing in that you are looking at the resuls of something and
assuming a great deal, more than I'm willing to accept to call it
a certainity we are getting it right. As I pointed out to you before,
you could be right, it does not change anything for me one way or
another with regard to my faith, my faith isn't affected by the age of
the universe whatever it is. My knowing that more than one thing
could cause something to appear to age is enough to know that
tests cannot give you that without the possiblity of being wrong, or
that you might be leaving something out that is important. That not
scripture is the reason I don't 'believe' I can call it a fact that the
earth is millions/billions of years old.
"...I can draw only one conclusion ..."
Like I said it agrees with your core beliefs therefore you will not
question it, I do thank you for not dropping as low as a few others
here who disagree with me in how they act. Though I do believe I
also belittled someone here a little while back, thought about what
I said afterward and wish I hadn't gone the direction I did with them.
;(
We can agree to disagree I suppose.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThe car metaphor doesn't hold water.
"...and that much of the star light I am seeing has been traveling for millions of years."
No you don't know that the light has been traveling for millions of
years! At best you know the starts are millions of light years away
and that is not the same thing as knowing that the light has been
travelling that long, it only really shows the distance. ...[text shortened]... 50 hour candle being
lit and measuring it and trying to guess how long it was buring.
Kelly[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJayI'd like you to answer my question from the previous page. I'll say it again. Why do you need to explain the earth's origins if it is possible for you to believe that God formed himself out of nothing? How can it be possible for something more complicated than the earth/universe to arise out of nothing but god can?
Really, you can see a car moving and know the rate and know where it
was an hour before?
Kelly
This may be asking a lot, but don't give me an answer with scriptures. Think about it, then tell me what you've come up with.