Dependencies for 'Chrisitan' salvation

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So how do you propose I demonstrate to you that something is divinely inspired? Do you even believe it is possible for something to be divinely inspired?

I believe that divinely inspired explanations for the human condition and that a divinely inspired code for living might be possible. yes. I have already speculated that our hard-wired moral sensibilities might be divinely inspired.

Originally posted by FMF
Do I think people should reflect and repent and try to renew themselves and grow when they fall short in their efforts to live a righteous life? Yes.

Do I think concepts of "repentance and regeneration" apply to notions of thoughtcrime (a lack of belief, for example) and that doubleplusgoodthink (I believe therefore I am "saved", for example) r ...[text shortened]... that are gained regardless of efforts to live a righteous life (or a lack of such efforts)? No.

Do you think people can really change permanently solely through their own efforts? Also do you accept the biblical account of the human condition?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So how do you propose I demonstrate to you that something is divinely inspired?

You'd need to come up with something better than stuff along the lines of 'No one is capable of righteous actions, but we Christians are as long as we tell ourselves we do them "in Christ", hence we are "forgiven", and while we're at it, let's hope the world ends soon because humans are so bad, and I want to be in "heaven", and people who think differently are going to get tortured forever, but not me because I believe "in" Jesus...' , which sounds like a peculiar blend of ancient man made mythology and a demented everything's-gonna-be-OK-all-I-gotta-do-is-think-certain-stuff self-help book.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk

Do you think people can really change permanently solely through their own efforts?

I think it is in our nature to be moral beings and to do righteous actions, and to change and grow when we fall short.

Also do you accept the biblical account of the human condition?

I think the Bible tells us about the human condition as seen by Christians (and to varying degrees Muslims and Jews as well) and has a lot of credibility as a source for anthropological study, cultural history, and even some psychology.

Originally posted by FMF
You'd need to come up with something better than stuff along the lines of [b]'No one is capable of righteous actions, but we Christians are as long as we tell ourselves we do them "in Christ", hence we are "forgiven", and while we're at it, let's hope the world ends soon because humans are so bad, and I want to be in "heaven", and people who think differently ar ...[text shortened]... gy and a demented everything's-gonna-be-OK-all-I-gotta-do-is-think-certain-stuff self-help book.

That sounds more like a contorted version of Christianity that you just made up.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]Do you think people can really change permanently solely through their own efforts?

I think it is in our nature to be moral beings and to do righteous actions, and to change and grow when we fall short.

Also do you accept the biblical account of the human condition?

I think the Bible tells us about the human condition as seen by Christians ...[text shortened]... f credibility as a source for anthropological study, cultural history, and even some psychology.[/b]

Do you accept that all people sin?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
You have quite a chip on your shoulder.

You are, of course, entitled to believe this. And kudos to you for being able to engage in a 'Christian v Non-Christian' discussion without the chip you perceive to be on my shoulder turning into seemingly the only thing you are able to talk about, as is the case with Suzianne.

You have produced actual content and substance during this conversation without copping out with scorn-for-scorn's-sake cyber-swipes and blurts. Suzianne would do well to learn from your example if she is ever to actually become the kind of contributor and standard-setter that she seems to think she is. 🙂

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Do you accept that all people sin?

Already asked. Already answered. Thread 169741 page 14.

Originally posted by FMF
Already asked. Already answered. Thread 169741 page 14.

Assuming a God exists and has a moral standard by which he judges people, do you think any person exists that hasn't broken at least one of his laws/commands?

Originally posted by FMF

You'd need to come up with something better than stuff along the lines of 'No one is capable of righteous actions, but we Christians are as long as we tell ourselves we do them "in Christ", hence we are "forgiven", and while we're at it, let's hope the world ends soon because humans are so bad, and I want to be in "heaven", and people who think differently are going to get tortured forever, but not me because I believe "in" Jesus...' , which sounds like a peculiar blend of ancient man made mythology and a demented everything's-gonna-be-OK-all-I-gotta-do-is-think-certain-stuff self-help book.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
That sounds more like a contorted version of Christianity that you just made up.

I'm not looking to offer you a characterization of Christianity that you'd like to endorse or identify with. It's a hodge podge of things that I've been hearing here day in day out for however many years I've been part of this community.

You said "No one is capable of righteous actions" just the other day.

KellyJay believes that humans can only do righteous actions if they do them "in Christ".

You all talk about how your "sins" have been pre-emptively "forgiven" by Jesus.

Suzianne and roigam are the let's hope the world ends soon because humans are so bad Christians - there are probably others.

sonship and Grampy Bobby are the propagators of the 'torturer God' ideology.

Numerous Christians here have talked about how their "salvation" is irreversible once they have believed in Jesus.

So, it's a hodge podge, but it's all stuff that's been said in various ways ad infinitum here on this forum. If they seem like "contorted" beliefs, then it is to your fellow Christians here that you should be addressing your concerns.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Assuming a God exists and has a moral standard by which he judges people, do you think any person exists that hasn't broken at least one of his laws/commands?

No.

That'd be why people would be "judged".

The idea that people are only "judged" on whether they believe or not seems preposterous and the notion that people have already been "forgiven" for 'breaking moral standards' because someone was executed 2,000 years ago [and as long as they genuinely believe they have been "forgiven" for that reason] is preposterous too. Elaborate, yes, self-deprecating, yes, mystical, yes, beholden, yes, sincere, fervent, zealous, etc. yes, but preposterous nevertheless.

Originally posted by FMF
No.

That'd be why people would be "judged".

The idea that people are only "judged" on whether they believe or not seems preposterous and the notion that people have already been "forgiven" for 'breaking moral standards' because someone was executed 2,000 years ago [and as long as they genuinely believe they have been "forgiven" for that reason] is prepost ...[text shortened]... ystical, yes, beholden, yes, sincere, fervent, zealous, etc. yes, but preposterous nevertheless.

Ok so if everyone has broken God's laws how can anyone get into Heaven?

Originally posted by FMF
You are, of course, entitled to believe this. And kudos to you for being able to engage in a 'Christian v Non-Christian' discussion without the chip you perceive to be on my shoulder turning into seemingly the only thing you are able to talk about, as is the case with Suzianne.

You have produced actual content and substance during this conversation without ...[text shortened]... o actually become the kind of contributor and standard-setter that she seems to think she is. 🙂

How courageous for you to say this to my face.

I've watched you brow-beat and bully this Christian for over ten pages, with the most childish of arguments. The only thing missing from your last post to him is an apology, not that I actually expect you to act like a human and actually apologize.

You should probably preface all following arguments like this with Christians with the warning that you intend to use every questionable argument known to you to attempt to make anyone reading think it's acceptable to deny Christ and salvation.

He approached your arguments with good faith that you might actually mean the things you said and that you don't merely have an agenda to smear his faith and his religion and his deity as best you can. I've learned better. I understand your agenda now in this forum. It's the same vilification and bullying I've seen you do to countless people in this and other forums, it's just that in this forum, you feel free to do your utmost to sneer and deride to your heart's content, merely for their 'outrageous' beliefs.

The only ones who will engage you anymore are those who've not seen your particular agenda of bullying up close.

I wonder if now divegeester will thank you for careening his thread so totally off the tracks that no one knows just what the heck it was ever about.

Because it's what you do.

Originally posted by Suzianne
How courageous for you to say this to my face. blah blah blah blah...

Suzianne, it's a real pity you can't take a leaf from Fetchmyjunk's book and bring yourself to engage in debate and discussion.