Originally posted by FMFSo you are trying to say that Christ does not save the truly repentant?
Isn't this circular logic? ... 'Christ only saves the truly repentant, so he must have been truly repentant'. ... It seems more likely (if I play the role of a believer in Christ again for a moment) that Christ was demonstrating something else; his power and prerogative to judge and "save" whoever He wants? Why would He seek to demonstrate that all one has to ...[text shortened]... h and you are "saved" regardless of whether you lived your life in accordance with his commands?
Originally posted by FMFIf you only hear of Christ on your deathbed and you believe and are truly repentant, Christ can save you as he did the penetant thief.
So it's [b]not enough to be "repentant on your deathbed"? That is the lesson you draw from your interpretation of Luke's account of this incident?[/b]
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhat - according to you - if I do more or less aspire to and try to comply with the the commands of Christ and feel regret when I fall short and redouble my efforts and aspirations to comply when I err - but I simply and sincerely don't have the "faith" in the divinity of Jesus?
But obviously if you know the commands of Christ now and harden your heart and ignore them you probably will not be repentant on your deathbed and you will not be as fortunate as the thief on the cross.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo - to your way of thinking - if someone hears "of Christ" from you, for instance, in their mid life, and they simply don't believe what you say, they cannot save themselves by being repentant on their deathbed?
If you only hear of Christ on your deathbed and you believe and are truly repentant, Christ can save you as he did the penetant thief.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkNo I am saying that you claiming that's what Jesus was doing with the thief because the thief must have been truly repentant because it was an example of Jesus saving the truly repentant - is just circular logic. Do you believe that Jesus knew absolutely nothing about the man's life? Do you believe Jesus is able to "save" anyone He wants to "save"? Do you believe that Jesus can "save" someone who mocks Him with his dying words if He wants to?
So you are trying to say that Christ does not save the truly repentant?
Originally posted by FMFNo I am not. That is your opinion. Matthew and Mark clearly do not say that one of the thieves did not repent at the end. If they did you may have had a point. But you don't. And you know it. And you are wasting your time pretending otherwise.
You are interpreting Luke independently of Matthew and Mark when all three are referring to the same incident.
Originally posted by FMFThe bible specifically warns against hardening your heart when you hear his words. I am not saying you cannot be repentant at the end but it might be harder if your heart is hardened over the years.
So - to your way of thinking - if someone hears "of Christ" from you, for instance, in their mid life, and they simply don't believe what you say, they cannot save themselves by being repentant on their deathbed?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIt might be "harder" to do what? Surely "to repent" (as the thief did) is easy. How can it be "harder"?
The bible specifically warns against hardening your heart when you hear his words. I am not saying you cannot be repentant at the end but it might be harder if your heart is hardened over the years.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo if someone hears your 'testimony' about your religion and they simply don't believe what you say, they will find it "harder" to be repentant on their deathbed? Is that what you are saying?
The bible specifically warns against hardening your heart when you hear his words. I am not saying you cannot be repentant at the end but it might be harder if your heart is hardened over the years.