Originally posted by wolfgang59
What tree, what fruit?

Really annoys me that you can pick and choose what is metaphorical and what is fact from the bible!!!!!!

Where is the User Guide?

You might be shown a certificate of self certification if you are fortunate, its true because I
say its true. Indeed as certain ones of the ancients stated with regard to the poetry of
Homer, 'Homeron ex Homeron saphenizein', 'you should elucidate Homer by the light of
Homer', its best to have this approach with scripture in that one interprets the Bible
internally, elucidating the Bible by the light of the Bible, otherwise you get absurd
statements like the above, 'We have all eaten of the fruit of that tree????'.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
(Psalm 51:5 NKJV)

The above is a more accurate translation of that verse. Even though David was asking God for forgiveness for his sin in the complete Psalm. In this verse he was not referring to his sin, but to his mothers sin that branded him illegitimate from birth. Note t http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm

This doesn't sound right to me. The entire Psalm 51 is a lament about David's OWN sinning. He is not bemoaning the error of anyone else like his mother. He is repenting having seen how deep rooted is the sinning nature in his own actions.

I think verse 5 is concerning him realizing the problem of his being sinful from birth by nature. I don't think David is reflecting on something his mother had done.

The next verse 6 - "Behold, You delight in truth in the inward parts; And in the hidden part You would make known wisdom to me."

I think all the time that David was planning his scheme of stealing another man's wife, he was suppressing his own human conscience. He knew deep within, as most sinners know, that what he was doing was wrong. But he was desperate to follow through because of the sheer but fleeting enjoyment of sinning.

He knows the truth in his innermost conscience. He does not obey this truth but follows after the deceit of his lust. The bitter regret follows the temporary enjoyment of sinning. And this marvelous Psalm serves as a model of godly repentence.

But to derive that right in the middle of the Psalm, David laments about some dubious transgression of his mother's ? I don't think so.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes it is possible to live a life without sin and Yahshua the Messiah proved it by living a sinless life. However, death is an inheritance of all men because of the sin of Adam. Man alone can not remove the curse of death for all men by not sinning.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. F ...[text shortened]... men's sins because of his dual nature as both man and God, representing an infinite sacrifice.

So it sounds like your comparing yourself or as your idea goes here all humans could be level with Jesus as far as not sinning? I hope that's not where your going with this but it surely sounds like it.
I actually agree with divegeester on this believe it or not.

Originally posted by divegeester
I can but you are just moving the point as usual.

In your OP you are deriding that website for suggesting that Adam will go to Heaven and yet you provide no substantiation as to why he won't.

Actually the bible is dead clear that Adam was going to die. NOT one hint of some afterlife which would negate the punishment for doing what he did. If he did go to heaven as you think and if heaven is the perverbial gold lined streets, then Adam would have come out of this pretty good, don't ya think?

So why don't you prove to us by SCRIPTURE that Adam did get resurrected and is now enjoying his harp playing in heaven???????????????????????????

Originally posted by jaywill
This doesn't sound right to me. The entire [b]Psalm 51 is a lament about David's OWN sinning. He is not bemoaning the error of anyone else like his mother. He is repenting having seen how deep rooted is the sinning nature in his own actions.

I think verse 5 is concerning him realizing the problem of his being sinful from birth by nature. I don't thi lm, David laments about some dubious transgression of his mother's ? I don't think so.[/b]

Regardless of whether or not it sounds right, the fact is his mother was believed to have committed adultery which made David pay for it during his entire childhood by being shunned and mistreated as being illegitimate. Does it sound right to you that an aborted baby or one dying shortly after childbirth should be condemned to Hell for a sin he knew nothing about and had no time to repent of?

P.S. I see the other version as a twisting of the scrptures by mistranslating the scriptures to agree with ones belief that original sin is passed on just like death is and we are born sinners so we can't possibly obey God's commandments.

Originally posted by galveston75
Actually the bible is dead clear that Adam was going to die. NOT one hint of some afterlife which would negate the punishment for doing what he did. If he did go to heaven as you think and if heaven is the perverbial gold lined streets, then Adam would have come out of this pretty good, don't ya think?

So why don't you prove to us by SCRIPTURE that A ...[text shortened]... did get resurrected and is now enjoying his harp playing in heaven???????????????????????????

The resurrection is yet to come. However, there is no evidence that Adam and Eve did not repent and that Christ did not die for their sins too. How about Cain and Able? If they were born sinners, it should make no difference who murdered who. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
Regardless of whether or not it sounds right, the fact is his mother was believed to have committed adultery which made David pay for it during his entire childhood by being shunned and mistreated as being illegitimate. Does it sound right to you that an aborted baby or one dying shortly after childbirth should be condemned to Hell for a sin he knew nothing ...[text shortened]... ed on just like death is and we are born sinners so we can't possibly obey God's commandments.

Regardless of whether or not it sounds right, the fact is his mother was believed to have committed adultery which made David pay for it during his entire childhood by being shunned and mistreated as being illegitimate.

This sounds like someting from some Hebrew apochryphal liturature. Is there ANYTHING in the canon of the Bible which confims what you are saying ?

Is there anything in First or Second Samuel, or in the Chronicles or the books of First and Second Kings which tells us about this adultery of David's mother ?
That is a genuine question. For all I know I never paid attention to such a passage.

Apart from the non-canonical traditions can you point to this matter in the Hebrew Bible. If cannot perhaps you should take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, Psalm 51 is about DAVID's sin. He has no one to blame there but himself. And he knows it. Do you think he stopped to consider some error of his mother ? His mother didn't tell him to command the bathing woman to be presented to his palace.

Does it sound right to you that an aborted baby or one dying shortly after childbirth should be condemned to Hell for a sin he knew nothing about and had no time to repent of?

You seem here to be leaping to another discussion altogether. It is not obvious to me how this jump has been made.

My opinion is that no aborted humans thus are judged in that manner. I do not have that much of a proof of such. If Abraham got God to disclose that He would not destroy EVERYONE in Sodom if a very small number or worthy people were there, I don't see why I should expect him to thus condemn a baby.

Now, God told Jonah that there were humans in Ninevah who didn't know their left hand from their right hand. So the evidence, to me, favors God being just in knowing who is appropriate to condemn and who is not.

But this is a little aside from the question of WHO David is talking about in Psalm 51. I think his reference to his being born in iniquity is simply his realization of how deep seated and instrinsic is his tendency to sin. It is something in his nature.

The law was a school master to lead us to grace. And through the law man becomes aware of how desperately evil he is. Who cannot cease to covet ? Who can cease to want jealously something that another has ?

In sin did his mother conceive him. He started off in life with a wrong nature.

P.S. I see the other version as a twisting of the scrptures by mistranslating the scriptures to agree with ones belief that original sin is passed on just like death is and we are born sinners so we can't possibly obey God's commandments.

I recall a couple of quotations from paraphrases above that I didn't like.

Now some of the commandments of God men could keep. But the atoning sacrifices were instituted because God knew that no one would be able to fullfill the whole law. The sin offering, the peace offering, the trespass offering were all provided because God knew that no Isrealite would be able to fully justify themselves by keeping the law of Moses.

Now though, the just requirement of the law can be fullfilled by those into whom Christ has been dispensed as the Spirit of divine life. With His indwelling nature there is the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

We are justified by faith in Christ forever. And the requirement of the law can be fullfilled by those learning to walk by the Spirit.

This is all covered in Romans chapter 8 . Right ?

"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.

For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:2-4)

The law of the Spirit of life which is in the indwelling Christ Jesus, has a spontaneous ability to live unto God fulfilling His requirements. It is even scientific. It is like the law of gravity.

IF we walk according to the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is in us, the righteous requirement of the law of God is fulfilled by a stronger principle working in us - a Living indwelling Savior who is divine Life.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The resurrection is yet to come. However, there is no evidence that Adam and Eve did not repent and that Christ did not die for their sins too. How about Cain and Able? If they were born sinners, it should make no difference who murdered who. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

What in the heck are you saying? Do you not have a bible and do you not read it? OM gosh this is the craziest stuff you've come up with yet. I can't wait to see the next chapter of your thoughts. Bring it on....Lol

It's just amazing how sometimes your dead on with your comments and then ZAP!!!! It's like something major just shorted out!!!!!

Originally posted by jaywill
This doesn't sound right to me. The entire [b]Psalm 51 is a lament about David's OWN sinning. He is not bemoaning the error of anyone else like his mother. He is repenting having seen how deep rooted is the sinning nature in his own actions.

I think verse 5 is concerning him realizing the problem of his being sinful from birth by nature. I don't thi ...[text shortened]... lm, David laments about some dubious transgression of his mother's ? I don't think so.[/b]

I gave a reference. There many thing that are accepted from the Jewish Talmud by Christians to help fill in the blanks in the Holy Bible. We know Ruth was David's greatgrandmother, but without refernce to the Talmud we would not know the name of David's mother because she is not mentioned in the Holy Bible. It also helps fill in missing information about David's birth and why he taking care of the sheep and not presented with the rest of his brothers to be considered as a future King. But you are free to ignore it if you wish. But it seems to be a reasonable story. But even if you don't like the story and choose to ignore it, there is no justification to assume David believed we are born sinners from the wording of that verse. Do you think God is trying to deceive everyone by giving the Ten Commandment when everyone is born a sinner already before he even has a chance to obey or disobey them? It doesn't make sense to me. I am not going to comment on this anymore for I do not wish to get into a heated argument about it. Let us just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by galveston75
What in the heck are you saying? Do you not have a bible and do you not read it? OM gosh this is the craziest stuff you've come up with yet. I can't wait to see the next chapter of your thoughts. Bring it on....Lol

It's just amazing how sometimes your dead on with your comments and then ZAP!!!! It's like something major just shorted out!!!!!

I guess I must be talking crap as usual. Don't worry. Be Happy.

YouTube

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I guess I must be talking crap as usual. Don't worry. Be Happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHFDa9efCQU

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Whew, it's in really big piles today bro....Lol

Originally posted by wolfgang59
What tree, what fruit?

Really annoys me that you can pick and choose what is metaphorical and what is fact from the bible!!!!!!

Where is the User Guide?

In that post I was referring to "eating of the fruit of the tree" as a Biblical condition that has affected all mankind, and I posted a couple of scriptures to reference it. The OP is about scriptural references to Adams condition and whether he got to go to heaven; it's a moot point from the atheist standpoint.

Originally posted by galveston75
Actually the bible is dead clear that Adam was going to die. NOT one hint of some afterlife which would negate the punishment for doing what he did. If he did go to heaven as you think and if heaven is the perverbial gold lined streets, then Adam would have come out of this pretty good, don't ya think?

So why don't you prove to us by SCRIPTURE that A ...[text shortened]... did get resurrected and is now enjoying his harp playing in heaven???????????????????????????

Rant much?

It's your OP, it's up to you to substantiate it. I'm not denying Adam died, I'm asking YOU to substantiate your claim that Adam is not in Heaven.

Preferably without skewed irrelevant references to "gold lined streets" and "harps".

Thanks.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes it is possible to live a life without sin and Yahshua the Messiah proved it by living a sinless life. However, death is an inheritance of all men because of the sin of Adam. Man alone can not remove the curse of death for all men by not sinning.

Do you ever give a moment's thought to your posts? Or even to the basis of your own Christianity? None of what you posted here is substantiated in scripture.

You don't believe in the concept of "original sin", so please explain how can it be that sin causes death and yet it's possible to lead a sinless life, and yet still die because of the sin of Adam?

Thanks.

Originally posted by RJHinds
P.S. I see the other version as a twisting of the scrptures by mistranslating the scriptures to agree with ones belief that original sin is passed on just like death is and we are born sinners so we can't possibly obey God's commandments.

But in you other post you say people die because of the sin Adam brought into the world...?

Are you having a cheeky little troll again?