Spirituality
16 Mar 05
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhen Lucifer rebelled he took 1/3 of the angels with him. When these angels lost their holy spirits(holiness). They became evil spirits,or some call them demons. CHRIST dealt with them as evil Spirits. So that is what they should be called. But many have been taught to call the demons. The word demon(s) is not found in the translations of today. But may be found in the early translations of the King James Version and earlier Versions of the Scriptures.
Ok. So?
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101Actually, New Revised Standard (1989), New International Version (1985) and New American Standard (1995) all use demons (at least in the New Testament). King James uses devils. The Greek word is daimonia, so demons is an appropriate translation.
When Lucifer rebelled he took 1/3 of the angels with him. When these angels lost their holy spirits(holiness). They became evil spirits,or some call them demons. CHRIST dealt with them as evil Spirits. So that is what they should be called. But many have been taught to call the demons. The word demon(s) is not found in the translations of today. But ma ...[text shortened]... ound in the early translations of the King James Version and earlier Versions of the Scriptures.
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by vistesdyou are right, thank you, will now update understanding
Actually, New Revised Standard (1989), New International Version (1985) and New American Standard (1995) all use demons (at least in the New Testament). King James uses devils. The Greek word is daimonia, so demons is an appropriate translation.
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulno, these being were given these titles when they rebelled along with Lucifer. A lot of the discusion about GOD and satan is not really done righteously.GOD created all things to worship HIM and only HIM. in times past this is what was. All created creatures worrshiped and served THE MOST HIGH GOD.
So God deliberately created beings that would move against him? In short, he created animosity?
Lucifer had a very most important duty. He was to bring Praise unto GOD. He decided to take the Praise that he was to give to GOD, and praise himself. Infact what he tried to do was to replace THE MOST HIGH GOD. He convinced 1/3 of the heavenly beings that they should worship him or themselves.
Which was insanely stupid! Created beings that forget that they were created. GOD cast them out of Heaven, in the process they lost their holy places and names. Just as man the heavenly hosts have the freedom of choice. To worship and serve THE GOD GOD OF ALL CREATION, or the devil. Man has a greater choice. He can serve the GOD that created him or, satan(devil) or himself.
Animosity, is part of the law of sin. Obeying GOD is in a set laws of obediance. Disobeying the law of obediance, sets in play laws of disobediance. So the laws of sin were there, but were not in play, until there was disobedience to the law of obedience.
16 Mar 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101So you are saying that God didn't know that this would happen when he created Lucifer and these other offending angels exactly the way he did? Becauae if he knew, he did it on purpose. If he didn't, then God is capable or making mistakes and therefore imperfect. So, which is it?
no, these being were given these titles when they rebelled along with Lucifer. A lot of the discusion about GOD and satan is not really done righteously.GOD created all things to worship HIM and only HIM. in times past this is what was. All created creatures worrshiped and served THE MOST HIGH GOD.
Lucifer had a very most important duty. He was to bri ...[text shortened]... s of sin were there, but were not in play, until there was disobedience to the law of obedience.
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17 Mar 05
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Originally posted by thesonofsaulDo you wish to discuss the "omni" qualities of God or the history of ethereal creatures? While I have no problem with using one to forward a point towards the other we should be clear about what we are discussing.
So you are saying that God didn't know that this would happen when he created Lucifer and these other offending angels exactly the way he did? Becauae if he knew, he did it on purpose. If he didn't, then God is capable or making mistakes and therefore imperfect. So, which is it?
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The premise of the origins of Lucifer and the evil spirits/demons/etc. is that Lucifer was Gods most magnificent creation. He was the second most powerful creature in creation, an archangel rivaled only by the archangel Michael, only God being more powerful than either. For whatever reason, Lucifer attempted an insurrection in heaven and a third of the angels flocked to his cause. War was waged, and when the angelic hosts of God were victorious Lucifer and his cohorts were cast down to hell. The angels for there on became evil spirits/demons/etc., manifestations of evil, plauged by darkenss, whose only pleasure is to torture Gods creation and subvert the light that they once embodied.
Such is the tale as I understand it, atleast. There are countless compilations upon the matter, some more credible than others, but all speculation in essence. The study of such astral being is a fairly fascinating subject, but regretably a large portion of the most credible works have been destroyed or hidden by certain churches throughout the ages. Ironically, I have found a lot of interesting tid bit form occult groups like the Golden Dawn. While they are a group of crackpots in my opinion, their deceptions are based upon some real works and as such interesting things can be found from them and other sources like them.
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulGOD THE ALL KNOWING,knew what would happen. GOD gave all the Heavenly creatures the same feedom of choice that HE gave us. In fact they had it first. What the creative beings did not know was, what would it be like to live outside the will of GOD.
So you are saying that God didn't know that this would happen when he created Lucifer and these other offending angels exactly the way he did? Becauae if he knew, he did it on purpose. If he didn't, then God is capable or making mistakes and therefore imperfect. So, which is it?
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17 Mar 05
Originally posted by OmnislashFirst Lucifer was the fourth most powerful force in heaven. There has always been GOD first, his SON second, and third THE HOLY SPIRIT, even though these three are also reconized as one Spirit.
Do you wish to discuss the "omni" qualities of God or the history of ethereal creatures? While I have no problem with using one to forward a point towards the other we should be clear about what we are discussing.
The premise of the origins of Lucifer and the evil spirits/demons/etc. is that Lucifer was Gods most magnificent creation. He was the seco ...[text shortened]... e real works and as such interesting things can be found from them and other sources like them.
The story as much as GOD has intended to know is in THE WORD OF GOD. There are no other sources of information. There has never been evidence that GOD has allowed to speak on what happen. And if he did knowing that he is a liar. He could not tell the truth if he wanted to.
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101I do not wish to quarrel with you my friend. My sources are sound. When I refer to the heirarchy of the heavens, I do consider the triune Gods three manifestations to be one and the same being, and as such refer to them as one being.
First Lucifer was the fourth most powerful force in heaven. There has always been GOD first, his SON second, and third THE HOLY SPIRIT, even though these three are also reconized as one Spirit.
The story as much as GOD has intended to know is in THE WORD OF GOD. There are no other sources of information. There has never been evidence that GOD has allo ...[text shortened]... at happen. And if he did knowing that he is a liar. He could not tell the truth if he wanted to.
Secondly, there are a fair number of God inspired writings which are not found in the Bible. We can concur that the Bible is the word of God, but I deny that it is the entirety of the word of God. A matter that I have harped on lately is the Nicene convention. Of the 256 documents which compile the Bible, they were chosen out of over 3,000. Furthermore, I acknowledge that there are numerous instances in the Bible in which God reveals knowledge to man, but what that knowledge was exactly is not revealed.
I believe that there is much biblical history which was indeed recorded, but is not present in the scriptures (example: the dead sea scrolls, etc.). I have an interest in such things, but please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I do not consider such documents to actually BE scripture, but they are of interest nonetheless and may even answer some questions. While it is my personal preference to acknowledge these things in theory only, I also give historical credit where due.
If you want to discuss documents such as this and how they may be helpful to the modern day theist or historian, let us do so either by PM or start another thread.
Pax Vobiscum
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by OmnislashWhat a chance you take. So you say that GOD as other material for us to study, hmm. Well I guess that if they testafy of the full Salvation that comes only through the salvation given by JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD. They would be acceptable. But do they? What are their titles anyway? Do they tesify of GOD'S haterd for sin?
I do not wish to quarrel with you my friend. My sources are sound. When I refer to the heirarchy of the heavens, I do consider the triune Gods three manifestations to be one and the same being, and as such refer to them as one being.
Secondly, there are a fair number of God inspired writings which are not found in the Bible. We can concur that the Bibl ...[text shortened]... ern day theist or historian, let us do so either by PM or start another thread.
Pax Vobiscum
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101This is why I am asking them to clarify if this is to be a discussion about biblical history or the "omni" traits of God.
GOD THE ALL KNOWING,knew what would happen. GOD gave all the Heavenly creatures the same feedom of choice that HE gave us. In fact they had it first. What the creative beings did not know was, what would it be like to live outside the will of GOD.
If it's about "omni" traits, here's how it will go.
He will assert that it is impossible for an omniscient being to be unknowing of anything (which, by definition is true). He will then assert that God being omniscient, created these being knowing that they would do evil, etc. and as such God is unjust (or something akin).
Debate will ensue. I will then be keen to point out that with any "omni" trait, the moment you limit the possibilities, even paradoxal possibilities, your statement has become fallacious and an oxymoron. Any "omni" trait (omniscient, omnipotent, etc.) is a pradox of reason. It can not be fathomed by the human mind as it is contradictory to the rules of space and time. Subsequently it, just as the presence of God, can neither be proved nor disproved by means of logic and reason, and as such it is both impossible to debunk by means of reason (though a good many people attempt to, on an almost weekly basis in these forums).
....such being the case, I hope we can progress with the history.
17 Mar 05
Originally posted by Omnislash
This is why I am asking them to clarify if this is to be a discussion about biblical history or the "omni" traits of God.
If it's about "omni" traits, here's how it will go.
He will assert that it is impossible for an omniscient being to be unknowing of anything (which, by definition is true). He will then assert that God being omniscient, cr ...[text shortened]... y basis in these forums).
....such being the case, I hope we can progress with the history.
Biblical history and "omni" traits of GOD are one and the same