1. R
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    14 Jun '16 18:53
    In how many ways does Jesus speak of God's plan to have Christ come INTO a man's being ?

    In John -

    chapter 3 - a new birth
    chapter 4 - a gushing up fountain within
    chapter 6 - living bread to be eaten
    chapter 7 - rivers of living water flowing out of the innermost being
    chapter 14 - coming as the divine "We" to make an abode with the lovers of Christ.
    chapter 14 - the Another Comforter, the Spirit of reality as Jesus coming to them
    chapter 15 - the life flow of the true vine going out to the abiding branches.
    chapter 16 - the Spirit coming

    Finally all these promises John is sure to show the fulfillment of in chapter 20 when Jesus breathed into the disciples the Holy Spirit and said "Receive the Holy Spirit".

    In First John, speaking on the other side of the event of the Christians' regeneration, John says that the SEED which is of God, is in the Christians.

    And Peter says that the saints have become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)

    "Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust."


    The Divine Seed, the Divine Nature, the Eternal Life, God Himself dispensed into His saved people.
  2. Joined
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    14 Jun '16 20:141 edit
    While Jesus walked the Earth:

    Jesus taught what is and is not righteous.

    Jesus taught what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom"

    Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.

    One does not have "eternal life" / cannot "live in the kingdom" until this transformation is complete.
  3. R
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    14 Jun '16 21:258 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    One does not have "eternal life" / cannot "live in the kingdom" until this transformation is complete.


    1.) The redeemed saints have been [past tense] "transferred into the kingdom of the Son of His love" ( Colossian 1:13)

    " Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."


    ToO's phrase "While Jesus walked the Earth" is code words for "I reject most of the New Testament as the Word of God" .

    2.) The redeemed saints having a normal church life are experiencing presently the kingdom of God (Rom. 12:17)

    " For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."


    ToO phrase "While Jesus walked the earth" is code words for - "I reject most of the 27 books of the New Testament as the word of God."

    3.) The relationship between the formation of the New Testament church and the entering into the kingdom of God is very close as indicated by Christ's words about the keys of the kingdom.

    " And I also say to you that you are Peter and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

    And I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of the heavens ..." (Matt. 16:18,19)


    In the book of Acts Peter used the plural "keys" and open the way to the kingdom.

    One key was used for the Jews at Pentecost.
    Another key was used for the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius.

    And here we see the close relationship between the preaching of the Gospel and the living in the kingdom of God from Paul.

    " ... the ministry which I have received from the Lord Jesus to solemnly testify of THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

    And now, behold, I know that you all, among whom I have gone about proclaiming THE KINGDOM OF GOD,.. " (Acts 20:24,25)


    What a close relationship in the church age between the Gospel of Grace and living in the kingdom of God.

    ToO's phrase "While Jesus walked on Earth" is a veiled coding for basically teaching - "Most of the 27 books of the New Testament should not be considered the word of God."

    Do you honestly think anyone fighting a battle to suppress the New Testament really CARES about God's administration ? I think he is battling against the kingdom of God.

    More examples could be given. But it will suffice to prove that "the kingdom of God" is in more than just ONE stage. And along each stage of development it is still the kingdom of God.

    " And He said, So is the kingdom of God; as if a man cast seed on the earth, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how; he does not know.

    The earth brings fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full gran in the ear.

    But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)


    The kingdom involves the seed.
    The kingdom involves the sprouting.
    The kingdom involves the lengthening.
    The kingdom involves the blade.
    The kingdom involves the ear,
    The kingdom involves the full grain in the ear.
    Lastly the kingdom involves the ripening and the harvest of a mature crop.

    All along the path to maturity there is the matter of the experience of the kingdom of God.
  4. PenTesting
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    14 Jun '16 22:04
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    While Jesus walked the Earth:

    Jesus taught what is and is not righteous.

    Jesus taught what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom"

    Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", ...[text shortened]... es not have "eternal life" / cannot "live in the kingdom" until this transformation is complete.
    This is correct. The transformation is the regeneration and this only takes place when Jesus returns, and only those who have followed Christ will be regenerated.

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)
  5. R
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    14 Jun '16 23:23
    Is there transformation in the Christian's life before the age of the millennial kingdom ? There had better be.

    Transformation in the church age -

    " And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is ..." (Rom. 12:2)


    In the church age the believer is exhorted to "be transformed".Such transformation is effected by the influence of the Holy Spirit renewing the mind.

    Further indications of transformation in the church age:

    " And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, thr is freedom.

    But we all with unveied face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:16,17)


    This too is before the millennial kingdom. A transformation from the Lord Spirit more and more causing the soul to reflect the Lord Jesus Christ.

    What about the phrase "the REGENERATION" in Matthew 19:28 ? It is a different Greek word that that used for "REGENERATED" in First Peter 1:23.

    The word used and translated either RESTORATION or REGENERATION in Matthew 19:28 is only used in one other place in the New Testament - Titus 3:5 in "the washing of REGENERATION and renewing of the Holy Spirit".

    The new birth is meant in First Peter 1:23.
    The different word used in Titus 3:5 includes the new birth but much more. It refers to a change from one state to another. Being born again is the beginning of this change. The washing of regeneration commences with the new birth and continues with a continual renewing of the Holy Spirit transforming more and more into the new creation. This is a reconditioning and remodeling with spiritual life and transformation of the soul.

    Do not accept any teaching trying to deny the new birth of being born again, born from above by saying such is relegated only to the millennial kingdom.
  6. R
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    14 Jun '16 23:323 edits
    Rajk999 wants to deny being born again.
    ThinkOone wants to deny well over half of the New Testament.

    Rajk999 wants to undermine the regeneration of the new birth in the church age by teaching the only regeneration is after Jesus comes back.

    ThinkOfOne wants to cloak his denial of everything but the so called " red letter" quotations in the synoptic Gospels with his euphemistic phrase "While Jesus walked on Earth". The Gospel of John may be included selectively in chapter 8 and 14 as long as it supports his thesis of a unavailable Jesus who did not accomplish a redemptive death and did not rise from the dead.
  7. PenTesting
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    15 Jun '16 12:211 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Rajk999 wants to deny being born again.
    ThinkOone wants to deny well over half of the New Testament.

    Rajk999 wants to undermine the [b]regeneration
    of the new birth in the church age by teaching the only regeneration is after Jesus comes back.

    ThinkOfOne wants to cloak his denial of everything but the so called " red letter" quotations in the s ...[text shortened]... a unavailable Jesus who did not accomplish a redemptive death and did not rise from the dead.[/b]
    I take what Christ and the Apostles preach without adding ot taking away.

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:5-8 KJV)

    Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:17-21 KJV)


    So here it is:

    1. The regeneration takes place when Christ returns, and it is those who have followed Him [not all Christians] will be regenerated
    2. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    3. A spirit being can move like the wind
    4 We wait for Christ's return to change our physical body into a spirit body like that of Christ.

    Are you a Spirit body and can you move like the wind? NO .. you are a still a fleshly body. However all Christians may have are some of all of:
    - born of water
    - Holy Spirit gifts
    - Spirit of God/Christ dwelling in them
    - the hope of eternal life


    The last stage of getting rid of this physical body and becoming a spirit being is yet to come.
    Paul says here that we WAIT FOR REDEMPTION OF THIS BODY:

    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:22-23 KJV)

    WAIT .. HOPE !! I believe Christ and the Apostles, whereas you choose to believe the teachings of a man.
  8. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:14
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I take what Christ and the Apostles preach without adding ot taking away.

    [i]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That [b]ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory
    , ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)

    Jesus answere ...[text shortened]... PE !! I believe Christ and the Apostles, whereas you choose to believe the teachings of a man.[/b]
    Technically, you are correct, we are not saved YET.
    It is still future.
    That is what our Hope is.
    Biblical hope is a sure and expected event.
    God speaks in past tense when He says we ARE seated in the heavenlies, because it is a sure thing. Nothing can change His plans nor His promises.
  9. PenTesting
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    15 Jun '16 14:24
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Technically, you are correct, we are not saved YET.
    It is still future.
    That is what our Hope is.
    Biblical hope is a sure and expected event.
    God speaks in past tense when He says we ARE seated in the heavenlies, because it is a sure thing. Nothing can change His plans nor His promises.
    Well I will say it differently which will encompass all of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles:

    Followers of Christ, who accept Christ, ARE SAVED from the curse of Adams sin.
    In that sense they are saved, they have been given the promise of eternal life.
    In this lifetime they have to follow Christ;s teachings and Christ will judge.
    They live in the hope of eternal life [a certainty for those who please God].
    Nobody is yet regenerated until Christ decides they are.
    This will happen when Christ returns.
    Regeneration is the process by which this mortal physical body is converted into a immortal spirit body fashioned like that of Christ.
    Only then can one enter into the Kingdom of God.

    I see that you are not with sonship on this regeneration issue.
  10. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:283 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You understandings are usually myopic, narrow visioned, preferential, dogmatic, blinded by bias.

    I take what Christ and the Apostles preach without adding ot taking away.

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That [b]ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory
    , ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)


    Matthew 19:28 DOES NOT mean that 1 Peter 1:23 is therefore not true.

    You are taking away 1 Peter 1:23. You don't have the scope to see that God spoke BOTH passages in His word.


    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:5-8 KJV)


    No. John 3:5-9 does NOT mean that 1 Peter 1:23 is not true.

    You're biased and myopic. Your like a cake unturned - all toasted black on one side and uncooked and raw on the opposite side.

    Who can trust you to be a guide through the Bible?


    Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:17-21 KJV) [/i]


    Nothing in that passage argues the Matthew 19:28 renders 1 Peter 1:23 wrong.

    Sometimes I really believe God has provided you on this Forum in order that the truth of the New Testament might all the more be seen from other posters. Sometimes I think God is using you in the same way He used Pharaoh.
  11. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:292 edits

    So here it is:

    1. The regeneration takes place when Christ returns, and it is those who have followed Him [not all Christians] will be regenerated
    2. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    3. A spirit being can move like the wind
    4 We wait for Christ's return to change our physical body into a spirit body like that of Christ.


    Salvation is applied to man's spirit.
    Then salvation spreads to man's soul.
    Then salvation encompasses man's body in "the redemption of the body"
    And salvation encompasses man's entire environment.

    Only a fool would argue that Matthew 19:28 renders 1 Peter 1:23 not true.

    It is not that some of us believe something extra.
    It is rather that you do not believe ENOUGH.


    Are you a Spirit body and can you move like the wind? NO .. you are a still a fleshly body. However all Christians may have are some of all of:
    - born of water
    - Holy Spirit gifts
    - Spirit of God/Christ dwelling in them
    - the hope of eternal life[/b]


    ? ? ?

    I have been REGENERATED not of corruptible seed, but of the living and abiding word of God which is incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23).

    None of that makes John chapter 3 untrue or Matthew 19 untrue.


    The last stage of getting rid of this physical body and becoming a spirit being is yet to come. Paul says here that we WAIT FOR REDEMPTION OF THIS BODY:


    You think I never noticed that verse ?

    We await the redemption of the body, and in the MEAN TIME, the genuine Christians have been REGENERATED not of corruptible seed but incorruptible - the living and abiding word of God. (1 Peter 1;23)


    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:22-23 KJV)


    Wonderful! And NONE of which makes 1 Peter 1:23 not true.


    WAIT .. HOPE !! I believe Christ and the Apostles, whereas you choose to believe the teachings of a man.[/b]


    Then you should believe 1 Peter 1:23 - UNLESS you have not been regenerated. THAT may be a problem.

    In that case intelligence or analytical skill is not the issue, rather lack of spiritual EXPERIENCE. You simply may not know what Peter is talking about.
  12. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:351 edit
    Myopic, tunnel visioned, one note ideology Rajk999.

    "You must be born anew." - Jesus
  13. PenTesting
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    15 Jun '16 14:35
    Originally posted by sonship
    You understandings are usually myopic, narrow visioned, preferential, dogmatic, blinded by bias.

    [quote] [b]I take what Christ and the Apostles preach without adding ot taking away.

    [i]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That [b]ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory
    , ...[text shortened]... be seen from other posters. Sometimes I think God is using you in the same way He used Pharaoh.[/b]
    Can you move like the wind? LOL ... Mr Comedian?

    Do you need to change the KJV in order to support your false doctrine. The KJV says

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23 KJV)

    nothing to do with regeneration

    God sent me here .. Yes for sure.
    - I am stating EXACTLY WHAT CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES PREACHED WITHOUT INTERPRETATION.
    - You preach some other nonsense most of which is not in the Biblle and which is contrary to Christ.

    Who is the Pharoah?
  14. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:42
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Can you move like the wind? LOL ... Mr Comedian?

    Do you need to change the KJV in order to support your false doctrine. The KJV says

    [b]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23 KJV)


    nothing to do with regeneration

    God sent me here .. Yes for ...[text shortened]... sense most of which is not in the Biblle and which is contrary to Christ.

    Who is the Pharoah?[/b]
    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23 KJV)

    nothing to do with regeneration


    It has to do with regeneration or born again. Its PAST TENSE. It pertains to BEFORE the millennial kingdom in the church age.

    And Peter, on this side of the millennial kingdom, realized that the word of God was living and abiding in him - year after year after year.

    Through persecutions and sufferings that living word of God had not only regenerated him but continued to be living and abiding.

    I told you that the word translated regeneration in Matthew 19:28 is a different Greek word.

    www.regenerated.net
  15. R
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    15 Jun '16 14:46
    Even though these translations do not use regenerated as the RcV does, they still refer to an event in the PAST. On THIS side of the millennial restoration, the churching people have been born again - regenerated.

    English Standard Version
    since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

    Berean Study Bible
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    Berean Literal Bible
    having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,

    New American Standard Bible
    for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    King James Bible
    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    since you have been born again --not of perishable seed but of imperishable--through the living and enduring word of God.
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