Do you believe in god?

Originally posted by yousers
Thank you for a great post. My only response is that I personally am not willing to live with a circumstantial morality, or simply to enjoy life as it is. I need something deeper, something beyond the natural.

I understand. I'm just not sure that the "something deeper," is beyond the natural... I'm still asking the questions myself. 🙂

EDIT: I'm not really "satisfied" with a "circumstantial morality" either, but it seems to be how I operate at the moment. I want to stress again, I'm only speaking for myself, not recommending any general approach to moral questions....

The problem with athiestic morality is that it will always be relativistism or utilitarianism with their many variations (positive, negative, act, rule etc.) This system will however ALWAYS leave itself open for abuse.

Originally posted by echecero
Because to maximize that same life, it helps to help others. Be hated by the world, your life will be cut short. Show disrespect for the life of another by killing them, and you justify the murder of yourself.

I have never met a self-proclaimed atheist, spiritual or aspiritual, who fit the description of "toss it all the to wind, and do whatever seems t ...[text shortened]... at they refused to act in a way that would lessen their lives or the lives of those around them.

They have all had an earnest respect for life itself so deep and foundational that they refused to act in a way that would lessen their lives or the lives of those around them.

Hmmmm... You've never met all these self proclaimed athiests: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Idi Amin, Samora Machel, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Timmothy McVeigh. Their respect for life astounding.

You should get out more... or perhaps just read a little bit more; the century (20th) of athiesm, has been the biggest bloodbath in the history of mankind.

Originally posted by Halitose
Hmmmm... You've never met all these self proclaimed athiests: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Idi Amin, Samora Machel, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Timmothy McVeigh. Their respect for life astounding.

You should get out more... or perhaps just read a little bit more; the century (20th) of athiesm, has been the biggest bloodbath in the history of mankind.

In Hitler's Mein Kampf (1924), Volume I, Chapter II: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
That doesn't sound much like an atheist, but rather like a follower of the Catholic church, into which he was confirmed as a child.

But, anyway, there will always be those people who have developed a strong hatred, anger, rage, or other negative feeling for some reason and strike out at others...I could provide a listing of believers of a number of different theistic faiths that have done things that most people would disapprove of on a large scale.

It is important to note that the term "atheism" contains a wider range of people than any other "-ism" I know of...in fact, there are many "-ism"'s that are subsets of atheism...for example, Bhuddism, humanism, solipism, cosmoligism, shamanism...and also some groups of people called "pagans" in America (quotes because non-Christians who use the term pagan always confuses me) who do not worship a god, but still hold some spirituality.

Originally posted by echecero
In Hitler's Mein Kampf (1924), Volume I, Chapter II: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
That doesn't sound much like an atheist, but rather like a follower of the Catholic church, into which he was confirmed as ...[text shortened]... e term pagan always confuses me) who do not worship a god, but still hold some spirituality.

Communism, is another one of those "isms", but is a real can of worms, so I won't even bother. Which subset of athiesm do you hold to be the true one?

Originally posted by echecero
In Hitler's Mein Kampf (1924), Volume I, Chapter II: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
That doesn't sound much like an atheist, but rather like a follower of the Catholic church, into which he was confirmed as ...[text shortened]... e term pagan always confuses me) who do not worship a god, but still hold some spirituality.

Just in passing, Hitler was one confused fella. He also based his extermination on the fact that jews were considered to be inferior human beings, together with the blacks and asians. According to his interpretation of the theory of evolution they were races that needed to be exterminated to make way for the master Arian race.

Originally posted by Halitose
Communism, is another one of those "isms", but is a real can of worms, so I won't even bother. Which subset of athiesm do you hold to be the true one?

It's "atheism", ending with an "ism", and not "athiesm" as you've spelled it. Since you mentioned "isms" this should have been obvious to you.

Anyway, atheism cannot be "true" as it makes no claims of its own and affirms nothing. The only question is whether theism is true. If you think the theists have insufficient evidence to warrant belief in their claim for the existence of a god, then by default you should be an atheist.

Originally posted by rwingett
It's "atheism", ending with an "ism", and not "athiesm" as you've spelled it. Since you mentioned "isms" this should have been obvious to you.

Anyway, atheism cannot be "true" as it makes no claims of its own and affirms not ...[text shortened]... the existence of a god, then by default you should be an atheist.

Thanks for the spelling lesson. 😀 So by your definition atheism is just a universal negative. To bring you back to the topic of the thread, atheism therefor has nothing to say about good or evil. All it does is ascert that there is no god.

Originally posted by Halitose
To bring you back to the topic of the thread, atheism therefor has nothing to say about good or evil. All it does is ascert that there is no god.

I think this is correct. Many times over the course of previous debates, atheists have tried to put this forward and also point out that they can hold a whole plethera of other beliefs about other things which are not related to atheism.

Originally posted by Starrman
I think this is correct. Many times over the course of previous debates, atheists have tried to put this forward and also point out that they can hold a whole plethera of other beliefs about other things which are not related to atheism.

So if there is no God, there are no absolutes?

(I'm just following that train of thought here... bear with me 😀)

Originally posted by Halitose
So if there is no God, there are no absolutes?

(I'm just following that train of thought here... bear with me 😀)

That statement does not follow, just because there is no god does not mean there are no absolutes.

Originally posted by Halitose
Thanks for the spelling lesson. 😀 So by your definition atheism is just a universal negative. To bring you back to the topic of the thread, atheism therefor has nothing to say about good or evil. All it does is ascert that there is no god.

Starman is correct in his statement. The term atheism literally means "without belief in god" (a=without, theism=belief in god).

Originally posted by rwingett
Starman is correct in his statement. The term atheism literally means "without belief in god" (a=without, theism=belief in god).

Just keep telling them, Rwingo ...... just keep telling them ....😀

Originally posted by ivanhoe


Just keep telling them, Rwingo ...... just keep telling them ....😀

O what a wearisome burden it can be. It seems that every few months, or so, another batch of theists show up on the site making the exact same statements. Tell me, Ivanhoe, are all theists indocrinated with the same theistic propoganda textbook? The regularity with which certain debates keep recurring certainly makes me think so.

Originally posted by rwingett


Anyway, atheism cannot be "true" as it makes no claims of its own and affirms nothing.

This is not true.

It minimally asserts that the theists have insufficient evidence to warrant belief in their claim for the existence of a god.

Additionally, it presumably asserts that claims of existence should not be believed in the absence of sufficient evidence in support of them. For if it didn't assert this, you'd have no syllogism to assert that the existence of God should not be believed.

If these two propositions are true, then Atheism is true, because of the valid syllogism.