1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    10 Jul '11 21:08
    given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may have the impression of thinking)

    what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?
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    10 Jul '11 23:421 edit
    God thinks.

    "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not My ways, declares Jehovah.

    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So My ways are higher than your ways, And My thoughts higher than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8,9)


    "For I know the thoughts that I think about you, declares Jehovah, thoughts of peace and not for evil, to give you a latter end and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11)

    "He is Jehovah our God ... He has remembered His covenant forever, the word that He commanded to a thousand generations." (Psalm 105:7,8)

    I cannot imagine what it would be like to be omniscient and thinking though.
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    11 Jul '11 00:21
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may ...[text shortened]... [/i] of thinking)

    what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?
    My view: Thinking as we know it implies among other things, processing information to come to conclusions (new knowledge or beliefs). Because God would be perfect and complete in all attributes at all moments, and never in receipt of new information or knowledge, I do not believe that thinking as we know it, is a process to be attributed to a mature concept of God. However, the personification of God (treating God as a person) leads to thinking -- ahem -- of God as thinking. This is probably the best we can do with our limited abilities.
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    11 Jul '11 00:33
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may ...[text shortened]... [/i] of thinking)

    what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?
    I don't understand this argument at all. Knowledge of future actions is generally a mark of free will rather than a contradiction of it. In court premeditated murder is considered a sign that the killer did not suffer any derangement. He acted out of his own agency, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and therefore fully intending them. If however the killer could not know the consequences, was completely unaware of how he would act in the future, he did not have free will: he was deranged. Similarly if God did not know how He would act in the future (many theists generally consider God timeless anyway), that would suggest he was a kind of arbitrary, whimful creature. He would be even more helpless.
  5. Donationrwingett
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    11 Jul '11 00:58
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    I don't understand this argument at all. Knowledge of future actions is generally a mark of free will rather than a contradiction of it. In court premeditated murder is considered a sign that the killer did not suffer any derangement. He acted out of his own agency, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and therefore fully intending them. If ...[text shortened]... hat would suggest he was a kind of arbitrary, whimful creature. He would be even more helpless.
    I don't understand your objections. He specifically allows for the fact that god would know his future actions in advance.
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    11 Jul '11 01:37
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I don't understand your objections. He specifically allows for the fact that god would know his future actions in advance.
    Ummm...yes. What's your point?
  7. Donationrwingett
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    11 Jul '11 01:39
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Ummm...yes. What's your point?
    ???
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    11 Jul '11 01:47
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b]I don't understand this argument at all. Knowledge of future actions is generally a mark of free will rather than a contradiction of it. In court premeditated murder is considered a sign that the killer did not suffer any derangement. He acted out of his own agency, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and therefore fully intending them. If ...[text shortened]... that would suggest he was a kind of arbitrary, whimful creature. He would be even more helpless.[/b
    Your omniscient god doesn't just know the future, it planned it out ahead of time, supposedly giving humans some false sense of free will. This so-called free will is just keeping us corralled in some limited number of corridors so we don't get out of hand. Assuming there is this omniscient god in the first place, you cannot prove it is there and I cannot prove it is not so that is somewhat of an impasse.

    You are, of course, free to believe in the tooth fairy and it will all work out in the end but don't hold your breath waiting. Its been 2k years now and no noticeable improvement in the fundamental affability of humankind in all that time. We kill with much greater efficiency now.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    11 Jul '11 01:55
    Perhaps my question should have been

    IF an omnipotent god exists - does he think?

    Lets not argue on this thread about the premise of the question .....
  10. Donationrwingett
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    11 Jul '11 01:56
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Your omniscient god doesn't just know the future, it planned it out ahead of time, supposedly giving humans some false sense of free will. This so-called free will is just keeping us corralled in some limited number of corridors so we don't get out of hand. Assuming there is this omniscient god in the first place, you cannot prove it is there and I cannot p ...[text shortened]... ndamental affability of humankind in all that time. We kill with much greater efficiency now.
    Ah, your point is an interesting one, but what are the only completely non-violent communities on the face of the earth? They are the Amish and Hutterite communities. There has been only one recorded homicide in their entire history. And it seems to be their belief in god which binds them to such a path.
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    11 Jul '11 02:391 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    ???
    I really have no idea what you are objecting to. I quite understand that Wolfgang allows that God knows his future actions. Duh. That was entirely the premise of this whole thread. The point I am challenging is whether God's knowledge of future actions compromises his free will (Wolfgang did not explicitly talk about free will but I think that is the point he is getting at.)
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    11 Jul '11 02:40
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Your omniscient god doesn't just know the future, it planned it out ahead of time, supposedly giving humans some false sense of free will. This so-called free will is just keeping us corralled in some limited number of corridors so we don't get out of hand. Assuming there is this omniscient god in the first place, you cannot prove it is there and I cannot p ...[text shortened]... ndamental affability of humankind in all that time. We kill with much greater efficiency now.
    I don't believe in God. Let's avoid this tangent and return to Wolfgang's question.
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    11 Jul '11 02:40
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    given that god supposedly knew the future of every particle in the universe at the moment of creation and given that god is part of the universe, does that imply that he knew his own actions in advance? and that therefore he cannot change them? in other words he is as helpless as any one of us? this would include god's inability to think (although he may ...[text shortened]... [/i] of thinking)

    what value are worship and prayer when the god is powerless to think/act?
    Shut up stupid.(hyperbole) What are you, 14 years old?

    I never called anyone stupid in this forum before, but your post is positively ignorant. You are obviously a teenager because you think you know it all.

    Either that or you just did some kind of drug and actually think you said something profound.
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    11 Jul '11 02:42
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Perhaps my question should have been

    [b]IF
    an omnipotent god exists - does he think?

    Lets not argue on this thread about the premise of the question .....[/b]
    I don't see how omni[/i]potence[/i] conflicts with God's ability to think. I don't even see how omniscience conflicts with God's ability to think (surely if God can know something, that presupposes he can think.)
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    11 Jul '11 02:47
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Ah, your point is an interesting one, but what are the only completely non-violent communities on the face of the earth? They are the Amish and Hutterite communities. There has been only one recorded homicide in their entire history. And it seems to be their belief in god which binds them to such a path.
    I got it! Let's force violent criminals to become Amish.

    Do you actually know any Hutterite or Amish folk personally?
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