Don't be too hard on yourself

Originally posted by sonship
You're another poster who shrugs hard, but seems addicted to checking just about every post I write.

If you and Divegeester want to impress me with a demonstration of how little people read my posts, you could start by leading the way. Don't read them.

I skim through some of your posts... not all. Like your last one ... saw Watchman Lee then skipped the quote saw Watchman Lee at the end. Decided it was rubbish.

I will leave to you drown in your milk. I know that there may be a few people wishing to graduate to meat like Paul advised but you are like a millstone around people trying to drag them down.

Originally posted by sonship
Wrong guess.


Suzianne has though given some positive feedback. And I know she does seem to hold an annhilationist view of eternal judgment. But you can comfort yourself with whatever statistics you like.

Why don't you see if you can put together two or more consecutive sentences which contribute something positive and helpful to those exploring [b]Sp ...[text shortened]... This would be more profitable then bragging about how little a percentage of my posts you read.

You once accused FMF of being directly responsible for hundreds of rhp forum going to hell**, do you think there are people outside of rhp who will be going to hell because you are in here wasting your time instead of out there speaking to them?

**remember that, or are you going to again accuse me of misrepresenting you and again fail to apologise for doing so?

Originally posted by sonship
You're another poster who shrugs hard, but seems addicted to checking just about every post I write.

If you and Divegeester want to impress me with a demonstration of how little people read my posts, you could start by leading the way. Don't read them.

It is my contention is that any Christian support you get in here is primarily the inverse impact of the disdain there is in here for your detractors I.e. FMF, Rajk999 and myself. I rarely, if ever see Christians engaging with your monologues in a meaningful way. You are in here wasting your time when there are hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are going to be tortured for eternity because they didn't hear from you.

Originally posted by FMF
I think I may have said something like this to you when you told me you thought that - because of my dissent and disagreements with you - I may have been responsible for hundreds of members of this community facing torture in flames at the hands of Jesus. "Hundreds" you said. Was that you taking comfort for yourself with whatever statistics you like?

Beat me to it.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] 1 John 3:4-10 is explicit and unambiguous. If the writer had meant for that passage to be taken as "process", he would have written as such.
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"The darkness is passing away." That reveals a process.

We also have experience of this.


C'mon jaywill, [/b ...[text shortened]... ... " (John 17:23a) [/quote]

Sanctification is a process.
Transformation is a process.[/b]

Once again you seem to have missed the point.

I'll try to break it down as simply as possible.

The following are the verses in question:
1 John 3
6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

According to 1 John 3:6, individuals that continue to sin have neither seen him or known him.

According to 1 John 3:9, individuals that continue to sin have yet have been born of God.

1 John 3:6,9 are explicit and unambiguous.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Once again you seem to have missed the point.
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I understand what you are trying to teach just fine.
There is no missing your point here.

I'll try to break it down as simply as possible.
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You have "broken it own" just fine. Not only here but in the past years, the breakdown is the same.


The following are the verses in question:
1 John 3
6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
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I see it fine ToO. It is very absolutely put. You either have seen God and cease from sin or you have not seen God and continue to sin.

I got it. It looks quite binary. Where's the "process" then ?
Either - Bang! you've seen God and sinning has been terminated in you OR
You haven't YET seen God, and that's why you continue sinning.

It is stated very simply and absolutely.
And I wouldn't change it for anything.


According to 1 John 3:6, individuals that continue to sin have neither seen him or known him.
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And you think I can't see how John put it.
I see it.


According to 1 John 3:9, individuals that continue to sin have yet have been born of God.

1 John 3:6,9 are explicit and unambiguous.
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In the natural life, being BORN is not the end of human growth. It is the commencement.
In the spiritual realm it is the same.

John speaks of young children, young men, and fathers. These are three levels of maturity. It would be absurd to believe that they are all waiting to be born of God. They have all been born of God and are in the process of growing with that life that they are born with.

John does not say that THEN we will be children of God. He speaks to his audience of young children, young men, and fathers and says "NOW" we are children of God.

"Beloved, now we are children of God ... " (3:2a)

If John was the ONLY one who could claim to be born of God then he would have written - "Now, only I ... am a child of God".

Because he says "we" the new birth producing children to the Father God applies to the young children, young men, and fathers WITH the Apostle John himself.

If "we" are in a state of sinless perfection, John would not need to say that "we" should at any future time confess "our" sins. What need would there be if they are born again into instantaneous sinless perfection ?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1:9,10)

So how can we reconcile this way of speaking to his absolutist way of saying, ie. " You have either seen God and are free from sin or you have not seen God and are not " ?

According to what the new life from the divine seed inherently is producing through growth and transformation, the believers are becoming like Christ. The destination will be as Christ. Their destiny will be as Christ.

Along the way in transformation his audience consists of Christians at various levels of maturity - young children, young men, and fathers.

There is nothing in the expounding that I have provided intended to encourage Christians to be tolerant concerning sin or sloppy or loose or excuse themselves for sinning. Quite the contrary is the case. The divine SEED implanted in every believer will produce a life which is like Christ. Every seed has to grow, develop, and mature.

Perhaps you missed the point that "transformed" in Romans 12:2 and in Second Corinthians 3:17 is a Greek word from which the English metamorphasis is derived.

Have any of you ever undergone any TRAINING ? Everyone should know that TRAINING means a process.

The grace of God comes into the believers in Jesus to TRAIN them to live godly and righteously. No, to live godly and righteously is not a matter of instantaneous sinless perfection the moment one receives the new birth.

Here you go -

"For the grace of God, bringing salvation to all men, has appeared, TRAINING us that , denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present age." (Titus 2:11,12)

The indwelling of Jesus Christ as the divine seed is TRAINING the believers to live out Christ in this world. I have never seen any kind of training which did not require improvement, development, maturing and growth in skill over time.

This also applies to the epistle of First John though John does speak in absolute expressions.

Originally posted by sonship
Have any of you ever undergone any TRAINING ? Everyone should know that TRAINING means a process.

The grace of God comes into the believers in Jesus to TRAIN them to live godly and righteously. No, to live godly and righteously is not a matter of instantaneous sinless perfection the moment one receives the new birth.

Here you go -

[quote] [b] ...[text shortened]... also applies to the epistle of [b]First John though John does speak in absolute expressions.[/b]

The word is TEACH not train.

Other English translations of Titus 2:12 agreeing with the Recovery Version:

International Standard Version
It trains us to renounce ungodly living and worldly passions so that we might live sensible, honest, and godly lives in the present age

NET Bible
It trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It trains us to avoid ungodly lives filled with worldly desires so that we can live self-controlled, moral, and godly lives in this present world.

Weymouth New Testament
training us to renounce ungodliness and all the pleasures of this world, and to live sober, upright, and pious lives at the present time,

Other versions have teaching, instructing, leading.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Once again you seem to have missed the point.
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I understand what you are trying to teach just fine.
There is no missing your point here.

I'll try to break it down as simply as possible.
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You ...[text shortened]... ond Corinthians 3:17[/b] is a Greek word from which the English metamorphasis is derived.[/b]

Why do you insist on making everything so convoluted?

It's really simple. We're discussing what 1 John says. Specifically what 1 John 3:6,9 actually says. Not what Romans says. Not what Corinthians says.

So once again:
According to 1 John 3:6, individuals that continue to sin do not live in Him and have neither seen him or known him.
According to 1 John 3:9, individuals that continue to sin have yet have been born of God.

Is there a period prior to an individual coming to "live in Him", "see Him", "know Him" and "be born of God"? Of course there is.
Is there a "transformation" that needs to take place? Of course there is.

That said, 1 John 3:6,9 defines the dividing line between those who have been "transformed" and those who have not:
Those who continue to sin have not been "transformed".
Only those who no longer sin have been "transformed".
Only those who no longer sin "live in Him", "see Him", "know Him" and "are born of God".

Originally posted by divegeester
It is my contention is that any Christian support you get in here is primarily the inverse impact of the disdain there is in here for your detractors I.e. FMF, Rajk999 and myself. I rarely, if ever see Christians engaging with your monologues in a meaningful way. You are in here wasting your time when there are hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are going to be tortured for eternity because they didn't hear from you.

Bump for sonship.

Santification is a process. First John is not a contrary teaching to this process.

1.) In the process even faith is not stagnant but grows.

" ... because your faith GROWS exceedingly ..." (2 Thess. 1:3)

2.) The body 'grows" with the growth of God. The growing life of God is not stagnant throughout the church age.

" ... holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, ... GROWS with the growth of God." (See Col 2:19)

Related to the OP, this is why the Christian should seek the corporate experience of the Body based companionship, even on a two or three small group bases.

3.) No saints are instantaneously fully transformed. All need to be "perfected" by the ministry of life in the normal church life.

" And He Himself gave ... shepherds and teachers for the PERFECTING of the saints unto the work of the ministry unto the building up of the body of Christ." (See Eph. 4:11,12)

Only those who think totally individualistically cannot see that spiritual growth and perfecting is related to the whole Body of Christ growing.

4.) Paul speaks of a point to which all growth will cause the Christ to arrive. It is not as if there is no need to "arrive" apart from the process of sanctification.

"Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:13)

A collective, fully matured "full grown man" instantaneously at the measure of Christ's fullness does not result merely because numbers of Christians were evangelized.

5.) The need for GROWTH of that divine life is evident because "God CAUSES to GROW" in the normal practical church life.

" I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the GROWTH.
So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the GROWTH" ( 1 Cor. 3:6,7)

Of course instantaneous sinless perfection upon being born again would not require God to cause to grow.

6.) Only those who think completely individualistically fail to see that individual sanctification is related to the whole building up of the living temple of God dwelling in His people corporately.

" For we are God's fellow workers, you are God's cultivated land [or farm] God's building." ( 1 Cor. 3:9)

So the growth of the divine life builds up the living "building" of Christ's church. This is throughout every New Testament book a matter of process. There is no exception.

7.) Both Paul and John speak about levels of maturity. Though sometimes it is in a exhorting or even scolding tone it is still in love.

Paul speaks of the fleshy believers and carnal believers as opposed to spiritual.
Paul speaks of those needing milk still and not yet solid meat. This is an indication of levels of maturity.
John speaks in his epistle of "young children, young men, and fathers".

It is ridiculous to imagine the fathers have not yet been born of God, the young men have not yet been born of God, and the young children have not yet been born of God. They have all been born of God.

8.) Since sanctification is a process Christians are exhorted to "GROW UP INTO HIM in all things. " (Eph. 4:15)

9.) Milk of the word is not discouraged. Rather it is sought that it may CAUSE spiritual GROWTH. Of course newborn babes would not need GROWTH if upon being born they were instantaneously fully transformed.

"As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may GROW unto salvation." ( 2 Pet. 2:2)

10.) The process of sanctification requires the GROWTH in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ the Savior.

" But GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet. 3:18a)

11.) Paul expected the faith of the saints to increase in the process of sanctification.

" ... as your faith is increasing ... " ( 2 Cor. 10:15)

It is not as if the Christians' faith is increased to the maximum immediately the moment of being born again.

12.) The normal Christian life is one of GROWING by the full knowledge of God.

"To walk worthily of the Lord to please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and GROWING by the full knowledge of God." ( Col. 1:10)

Two points of this post are presented here. Sanctification throughout the New Testament is a PROCESS requiring GROWTH, INCREASE, DEVELOPMENT.

And the best environment for this growth is the corporate companionship with a view to God's desire to have a collective Body for Christ.

The OP about not being too hard on yourself means, seek companionship in love with other believers for more prevailing growth spiritually.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why do you insist on making everything so convoluted?

It's really simple. We're discussing what 1 John says. Specifically what 1 John 3:6,9 actually says. Not what Romans says. Not what Corinthians says.

So once again:
According to 1 John 3:6, individuals that continue to sin do not live in Him and have neither seen him or known him.
According to ...[text shortened]... med".
Only those who no longer sin "live in Him", "see Him", "know Him" and "are born of God".

Is there a period prior to an individual coming to "live in Him", "see Him", "know Him" and "be born of God"? Of course there is.
Is there a "transformation" that needs to take place? Of course there is.

To be born of God is the commencement of that process.

"Now are we the children of God" indicates that John and the recipients of his epistle have had the spiritual birth in the past. They are therefore IN the process of transformation.

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. " (1 John 3:3a)

As to their past - they have been begotten of God. Otherwise he would not say "NOW we are children of God".

Not only so, but the hope that they have about what they will finally be manifested to be is an ongoing purifying hope.

" ... we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is.

And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure." (v.2c,3)

That said, 1 John 3:6,9 defines the dividing line between those who have been "transformed" and those who have not:
Those who continue to sin have not been "transformed".
Only those who no longer sin have been "transformed".
Only those who no longer sin "live in Him", "see Him", "know Him" and "are born of God".
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i have been born of God. In some areas I have been transformed. In other areas I still need to be transformed.

Though the one begotten of God has commenced the transformation process, it is perfectly reasonable for the Apostle to put the process and climax in the terms as he does. It is really a dividing line between the old man and the new man.

As Paul writes that we Christians put off the old man and put on the new man, indicating also a process.

"That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, THE OLD MAN, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit,

And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on THE NEW MAN, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 4:22-24)

The process of renewal is the process of putting off the old man and putting on the new man. This is also putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

" Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts." (Rom. 13:14)

This process of transformation and sanctification is also clearly depicted when Paul says Christ is being FORMED in the Galatian believers.

" My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you." (Gal. 4:19)

Having said this it is fair to also say that resurrection is ALSO spoken of as a BIRTH. The BIRTH of being begotten of God is one birth - a commencement of transformation. And the BIRTH of resurrection and transfiguration is another birth at the climax of God working in His saints.


That's good enough for this post.

Why do you insist on making everything so convoluted?

It is not convoluted to show that being "begotten of God" commences the process of transformation. It is not convoluted to show regeneration is the beginning of the process of subjection sanctification.

Some early teachers erroneously taught that the resurrection has taken place already. Paul had to correct the spreading of this error.

Some early also erroneously taught that the day of the Lord had already taken place.

In your view there is a danger that people would pick up the thought that they have to wait to be begotten of God at some future time when they reach sinless perfection.