don't blame us , blame Jesus!

This theory of rhe incorrect words of Jesus in the New Testament is not very effective.

You still have Paul's letter of Second Corinthians which is a kind of amazing Christian apostle's autobiography. The same criticism you level at the "red letter" sayings of Jesus you now will have to similarly charge against Paul.

That is unless you are prepared to demonstrate that whoever wrote the Corinthian letters must have been mad.

So you dismiss Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as fictional words placed into the mouth of a man by some Galilean fishermen. Who wrote the words and why in Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Galatians, Romans?

Then again many of these skeptics don't bother to read the New Testament.

Any interested - Dr. Bart Erhman / Dr. Craig Evans Debate - Does the New Testament Misquote Jesus?

9 videos for the hearty.

YouTube

Originally posted by knightmeister
Even half of what he said would still be enough for my argument to hold water. Even if the story of the last supper was the only true bit of his sayings the it would still be enough to say he was claiming He was something pretty darn incredible.

Numerous peole have claimed to be somethong more than human and a religion does not spring up around them. Sometimes it does though . Check out Adi Da . He claimed to be the highest realized Master of all time. He turned out to be a somewhat problematic . What I'm saying that you can claim many things but does that really verify it ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Any interested - Dr. Bart Erhman / Dr. Craig Evans Debate - [b]Does the New Testament Misquote Jesus?

9 videos for the hearty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRQ9WaxEjvc[/b]

More - Top Bible Scholars Respond to Bart Erhman:

YouTube&feature=related

Originally posted by knightmeister
So why was he crucified? Do you know? By all accounts he hadn't done anything wrong.

One alternate theory: He was crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews [a political threat rather than a spiritual one], not the Son of God.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Our righteousness is not our own , it is of God. No man can create righteousness and goodness within himself unless it is first gifted to him. Do you think your righteousness or goodness belongs to you? Did you give it to yourself? I am actually very aware of my abject sinfulness and need for God. In admitting this to God I found that he gave me a goo ...[text shortened]... ou believe in free will? If not why so angry? Would you be angry at a tree for having leaves?

How precious. You actually thought that in calling you self-righteous I meant to say that you are full of righteousness that is ultimately sourced from your self; and now you are retorting that, rather, your righteousness is ultimately sourced from God, not yourself. But, no, I did not mean to imply that you have any righteousness; I just meant it in purely a pejorative sense. I could just call you a sanctimonious twit. Does that make the point better?

If you have had experiences of pompous self righteous Christians then I'm sorry that happened. Please try to understand that they were either not right with God or did not really know him.

Physician, heal thyself.

BTW- You can only rationally "blame" people for things if they have a choice in doing it. If you really think I am self righteous then I am so because I am pre-determined to be that way. Unless you believe in free will? If not why so angry? Would you be angry at a tree for having leaves?

We have had countless discussion on free will on these boards, and you still do not understand my stance on the matter??? Actually, I'm not surprised.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
One alternate theory: He was crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews [a political threat rather than a spiritual one], not the Son of God.

Then you would have to do an extensive presumptuous re-write of the book of Acts. It certainly includes Peter's and the other apostles' first gospel messages.

And in them He was crucified for also claiming to be the Son of God, the Christ.

ie. "The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delived up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. But you denied the holy and righteous One and asked that a man who was a murderer be granted to you;
And the Author of life you killed; whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses." (Acts 13:13-15)

Paul also quotes Psalm 2 about the Son of God making saying that it refers to the day of the resurrection of Jesus after He was crucified:

God speaking in Psalm 2 - "You are My Son; Today I have begotten You" Compare Acts 13:33 and Psalm 2:7.

Originally posted by jaywill
Advertizing the new [b] Untampered With New Testament (Endorsed by none other than Dr. Bart Ehrman).

Now critical textural scholarshipo has traced the original sayings of Jesus and shown how they were altered and tampered with as well as added to by zealots over the first 100 years of the Christian era.

These astounding findings are ...[text shortened]... the original sayings actually spoken by Jesus, as discovered by astute scholarship.[/b]

I see the point underlying what you're saying, and I must say that I concur.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I see the point underlying what you're saying, and I must say that I concur.

This is the unbeliever's dream, to find an authentic ancient Bible of only unbothering, benigh, "harmless," uncontraversial passages which allow him to get on with his sinful life with no sense of conviction to consider his ways before God.

Originally posted by jaywill
This is the unbeliever's dream, to find an authentic ancient Bible of only unbothering, benigh, "harmless," uncontraversial passages which allow him to get on with his sinful life with no sense of conviction to consider his ways before God.

unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners.

Do you have nothing but Christian believers in your city ?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Do you notice how your thinking reverts back to the idea that this is somehow something to do with Knightmeister. Knowledge and revelation of the truth is a gift from God.

And do you notice how I, as an atheist do not believe in God? I therefore find you arrogant in your belief that God exists and that God told you this or that and that you KNOW all this stuff without evidence or reason. Sorry, but blaming the fairies just doesn't cut it when nobody else believes in fairies. Ask any young girl.

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you have nothing but Christian believers in your city ?

this question lacks logic. obviously i'm not a christian believer, ergo there is at least one unbeliever in my city.

that however doesn't undermine the validity of my statement:

"unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners."

for only the believers of a particular god can sin against that particular god according to whatever the particular god they believe in finds sinful.

non believers recognize no such particular god nor any notion of things that are sinful to a non-existent god, ergo they cannot be sinners.

they can have faults. they can commit unbelievable crimes against humans, animals and property. but they can commit no crimes against a god or gods of any sort.

[edit: additionally, unbelievers cannot commit haram. only muslims can commit haram]

Originally posted by jaywill
This is the unbeliever's dream, to find an authentic ancient Bible of only unbothering, benigh, "harmless," uncontraversial passages which allow him to get on with his sinful life with no sense of conviction to consider his ways before God.
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners.

How readily, how completely, do you prove jaywill right.

In your fantasyland, how can you possibly be sinning by rejecting the idea that you are in sin? That won't cut the mustard where the rubber meets the road. Facts are facts. Ignoring or "disbelieving" the facts doesn't absolve you of your sin, it only digs you in deeper. And it's not even a case of "ignorance of the law"... it's more "I don't believe it, so it must not be true". This might sound convenient to you, but no one is being fooled here except you.

It reminds me of little kids running around with their fingers in their ears, saying "lalalalala, I can't hear you...". It never worked then, either.

Originally posted by Suzianne
How readily, how completely, do you prove jaywill right.

In your fantasyland, how can you possibly be sinning by rejecting the idea that you are in sin? That won't cut the mustard where the rubber meets the road. Facts are facts. Ignoring or "disbelieving" the facts doesn't absolve you of your sin, it only digs you in deeper. And it's not even a case ...[text shortened]... eir ears, saying "lalalalala, I can't hear you...". It never worked then, either.

Children running around with there fingers in their ears going "lalalalala, I can't hear you..." can actually see and experience with their senses the person dictating the demands to them, the same can't be said for your Bible God. The comparison is false.