don't blame us , blame Jesus!

Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who could bridge the gap between the human race and God. He claimed he would come back at the end of time and judge all of us. He also calls His followers to be bold about Him and not be ashamed of Him.

What choice are we left with? If we shrink back from saying anything else than He is THE truth (not a truth) then we deny Him. It might sound arrogant to those who don't believe but for us to claim anything else would be a crass form of patronising false humility. Atheists might rightly accuse us of not being true to what we believe.

We boast not of ourselves , but of Him. It's his fault , he started the whole thing. Get angry with Him. Despise Him for his gross arrogance and egotism. Reject Him as insane. Fear Him and His words for being so dangerous and divisive. Laugh at Him for the stupidity of his claims. Just get real with Him and figure out what He said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who ...[text shortened]... said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

I think you'll find that a lot of people put words into Jesus' mouth between the time he died and the time the bible was finally written. I would wager that Jesus never said half of what's attributed to him in the bible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who ...[text shortened]... said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

Wow that's lame. "Don't blame me for my insufferable self-righteousness; blame the invisible 2,000 year old zombie."

At least you recognize that someone or something is to blame here. That's a start, I guess.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who ...[text shortened]... said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

Typical CS Lewis/Josh McDowell style apologetics.

McDowell says that there are only three options: accept Jesus as lord, denounce him as a liar, or brand him a lunatic. But this a false trichotomy. As rwingett points out, there is a fourth choice: you can claim that Jesus was misquoted by the Bible's authors. Some biblical scholars, like Bart Ehrman for example, are convinced that many of the sayings attributed to Jesus were 'tacked on' to the existing oral tradition by followers who desired to point the new church in a specific doctrinal direction. The doctrines of the deity of Christ and his resurrection were not consensus among the followers of Jesus, but the writers of the Bible won out over their opponents. The cliche "History is written by the victors" comes to mind.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Typical CS Lewis/Josh McDowell style apologetics.

McDowell says that there are only three options: accept Jesus as lord, denounce him as a liar, or brand him a lunatic. But this a false trichotomy. As rwingett points out, there is a fourth choice: you can claim that Jesus was misquoted by the Bible's authors. Some biblical scholars, like Bart Ehrman f ...[text shortened]... won out over their opponents. The cliche "History is written by the victors" comes to mind.

Bear in mind that if Jesus HAD said the things in the Bible then people would still claim that his message had been "massaged". In truth though I don't think that claim really holds water because historically it's pretty well accepted that he was crucified for blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God.

Originally posted by rwingett
I think you'll find that a lot of people put words into Jesus' mouth between the time he died and the time the bible was finally written. I would wager that Jesus never said half of what's attributed to him in the bible.

Even half of what he said would still be enough for my argument to hold water. Even if the story of the last supper was the only true bit of his sayings the it would still be enough to say he was claiming He was something pretty darn incredible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
...historically it's pretty well accepted that [Jesus] was crucified for blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God.

This is misleading at best and false at worse - there is no such consensus among biblical scholars.

Originally posted by knightmeister
And if you like - Take it up with Him.

Yes, we all know that you blame God for any good you do and the devil for any bad you do, yet claim to have free will.
Of course, your whole post ignores the fact that anyone blaming you is presumably not Christian and therefore will not accept your argument because they don't believe in Jesus.
The arrogance is when you think that you somehow know the truth and we don't. But you cant even back this up with any reasoning or evidence, you just KNOW that you have the truth and I don't. This has nothing to do with what Jesus said. This has to do with the fact that you think that you KNOW what Jesus said and I don't, and that you KNOW that Jesus was telling the truth, and I just think it was all made up by various writers after his death.
But I am not angry about any of that. I get angry when you then think that you have the right to teach creationism in school, and when you deliberately try to sabotage science because it makes your religion look bad, or when you start a war with Iran because they are Muslim and they don't like Israel and you think keeping Israel under Jewish control is a fulfilment of prophesy (that needs to be helped along a bit). I get angry when people refuse to speak up against someone who is doing wrong or preaching wrong simply because that someone claims to be Christian.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Wow that's lame. "Don't blame me for my insufferable self-righteousness; blame the invisible 2,000 year old zombie."

At least you recognize that someone or something is to blame here. That's a start, I guess.

Our righteousness is not our own , it is of God. No man can create righteousness and goodness within himself unless it is first gifted to him. Do you think your righteousness or goodness belongs to you? Did you give it to yourself? I am actually very aware of my abject sinfulness and need for God. In admitting this to God I found that he gave me a goodness in the Spirit that I never could have got on my own by my own efforts. If at any point in my life God decided to withdraw his grace from me I shudder to think who I would become.

If you have had experiences of pompous self righteous Christians then I'm sorry that happened. Please try to understand that they were either not right with God or did not really know him.



BTW- You can only rationally "blame" people for things if they have a choice in doing it. If you really think I am self righteous then I am so because I am pre-determined to be that way. Unless you believe in free will? If not why so angry? Would you be angry at a tree for having leaves?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, we all know that you blame God for any good you do and the devil for any bad you do, yet claim to have free will.
Of course, your whole post ignores the fact that anyone blaming you is presumably not Christian and therefore will not accept your argument because they don't believe in Jesus.
The arrogance is when you think that you somehow know the t ...[text shortened]... e who is doing wrong or preaching wrong simply because that someone claims to be Christian.

I get angry when you then think that you have the right to teach creationism in school, and when you deliberately try to sabotage science because it makes your religion look bad, or when you start a war with Iran because they are Muslim and they don't like Israel and you think keeping Israel under Jewish control is a fulfilment of prophesy (that needs to be helped along a bit)


------------whitey--------------------------------------------

I am not a creationist and I think attempts to block science and free thinking in schools is outrageous.

I am an advocate for Palestinian rights and do not subscribe to the Zionist agenda.

I am angry about many of the things you are and I also think that if Jesus was around now he would be with the Palestinians dodging bullets rather than in Jerusalem.

I think you need to take these things up with Pat Robertson and his cronies not me.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This is misleading at best and false at worse - there is no such consensus among biblical scholars.

So why was he crucified? Do you know? By all accounts he hadn't done anything wrong.

you can claim that Jesus was misquoted by the Bible's authors. Some biblical scholars, like Bart Ehrman for example, are convinced that many of the sayings attributed to Jesus were 'tacked on' to the existing oral tradition by followers who desired to point the new church in a specific doctrinal direction. The doctrines of the deity of Christ and his resurrection were not consensus among the followers of Jesus, but the writers of the Bible won out over their opponents. The cliche "History is written by the victors" comes to mind.

Advertizing the new Untampered With New Testament (Endorsed by none other than Dr. Bart Ehrman).

Now critical textural scholarshipo has traced the original sayings of Jesus and shown how they were altered and tampered with as well as added to by zealots over the first 100 years of the Christian era.

These astounding findings are now incorporated into the new Untampered With New Testament revealing the real sayings of Jesus before they were embellished:

Examples Follow:

1.) The latter embellishment:

John 14:6 - "Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

The untampered with version of John 14:6 - "Hey Peter, could you pass me another piece of fish ?"

2.) The latter embellishment:

Matthew 28:19,20 - "Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age."

The untampered with version of Matt. 28:19,20 - " Make sure you take your tunics tonight men. It is kind of chilly outside. Oh, Philip, where's that good walking stick you cut for me yesterday ?"


3.) The latter embellished Luke 24:42,43:

"And he said, Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

The authentic original untampered with text:

"Jesus, could I stay for dinner tonight ? He said to him, Sure if Simon and Andrew bought enough groceries this afternoon at the market."


Rush and order your Untamptered with New Testament and be enlightened as to the original sayings actually spoken by Jesus, as discovered by astute scholarship.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Bear in mind that if Jesus HAD said the things in the Bible then people would still claim that his message had been "massaged".

Even if Jesus really did say all the things attributed to him in the Bible, there are still problems.

1) I might take Josh McDowell up on his offer and dismiss Jesus as a lunatic. Why not? I would think the same of any other human who claimed to be all-powerful.
2) Philosophical problems. A) The "Problem of Evil" - is all the evil in the world really necessary for the greater good? If not, then why does God allow it? B) The "Problem of Heaven" - many Christians believe that the saved will live in heaven for eternity, have free will, yet not sin. If so, why did God create any other kind of person? Why did he create a physical world full of suffering? Just start by creating heaven and the people in it. C) The "Problem of God's free will" - God is morally perfect; everything he does is right. But does he have free will? If yes, then it is possible for an agent to have free will and never sin - and this extends to human beings. If no, then God is just a very powerful robot. D) The "Problem of Hell" - is it really just to sentence anyone to eternal torment? Even if Adolf Hitler serves 100 years in hell for each of the ~6 million Jews he had killed, after 600 million years of torture, he's still just getting started serving his sentence. And there will be people in Hell who have never killed anyone right there with him! Bizarro-Justice at its finest.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, we all know that you blame God for any good you do and the devil for any bad you do, yet claim to have free will.
Of course, your whole post ignores the fact that anyone blaming you is presumably not Christian and therefore will not accept your argument because they don't believe in Jesus.
The arrogance is when you think that you somehow know the t ...[text shortened]... e who is doing wrong or preaching wrong simply because that someone claims to be Christian.

But you cant even back this up with any reasoning or evidence, you just KNOW that you have the truth and I don't.

This has nothing to do with what Jesus said.

-------------------whitey-----------------------------------

Really...? Read His words. He seemed to think that His followers would know something.........


To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free"

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand."

Do you notice how your thinking reverts back to the idea that this is somehow something to do with Knightmeister. Knowledge and revelation of the truth is a gift from God. I can't know any of the things I know without God. It's a gift of grace. The delusion of this world is that people think that they belong to themselves. It's the number one sin of pride. We don't belong to ourselves , we belong to Him. Becoming a Christian just means handing back your life and your heart , your body to it's rightful owner.


I know it sounds astonishing - that's because it is. Trust me. You will never come across anything so challenging and radical as the Living Jesus in this life.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Even if Jesus really did say all the things attributed to him in the Bible, there are still problems.

1) I might take Josh McDowell up on his offer and dismiss Jesus as a lunatic. Why not? I would think the same of any other human who claimed to be all-powerful.
2) Philosophical problems. A) The "Problem of Evil" - is all the evil in the world really ...[text shortened]... Hell who have never killed anyone right there with him! Bizarro-Justice at its finest.

That's great! Finally someone who is prepared to call Him a lunatic for what he said. I agree with you (in a way) . If I didn't believe in Him I would think the same.