don't blame us , blame Jesus!

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Children running around with there fingers in their ears going "lalalalala, I can't hear you..." can actually see and experience with their senses the person dictating the demands to them, the same can't be said for your Bible God. The comparison is false.

However, my "Bible God" is there just the same. You choose to reject Him. And simply because you cannot sense His presence. How sad.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
this question lacks logic. obviously i'm not a christian believer, ergo there is at least one unbeliever in my city.

that however doesn't undermine the validity of my statement:

"unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners."

for only the believers of a particular god can sin against that particular god according to whatever t ...[text shortened]... t.

[edit: additionally, unbelievers cannot commit haram. only muslims can commit haram]

this question lacks logic. obviously i'm not a christian believer, ergo there is at least one unbeliever in my city.

The question was the first in a series. But never mind. Right to the point.

I understand your point of view but not even all secular folks would agree. There is a transgression against a fellow man which is a transgression pure and simple. It is not a transgression only if there is a God and NOT a transgression is no God.

Not all of the definitions of the word "sin" or "sinning" would be exclusive of Christian theology. They may say the word is derived from the Bible. But practical usage of the word would not always restrict is usage to believers in Christ.

Ie. copied without permission from Dictionary.com - sin

==============================
" noun
1.
transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.

2.
any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.

3.
any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time. "
===========================

Notice that definitions 2. and 3. are not necessarily tied to Christian theology.

"any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious OR MORAL PRINCIPLE. "

In the US there is a city, Los Vegas, Nevada, where legalized gambling has taken root from long ago. The saying about this city is "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas."

The city has also been nicknamed "Sin City". This was not meant to mean ONLY Christians go there.

that however doesn't undermine the validity of my statement:

"unbelievers don't have sinful lives. only believers are sinners."

If there is a God then a "sin" against a fellow man is also a sin against God. Neither the sinner or the one sinned against need be a believer in God or a Christian.

Practically you do not live this way. You probably have a set of keys in your person. You probably have different keys to LOCK up different things. The reason for you not leaving all of your things unlocked, ie. house, car, office, etc., is because you do not want anyone to STEAL what is yours and not theirs.

You may call that FIN, or GIN, or SIN. It matters little. Practically speaking you fear the moral lapse of someone stealing your possessions. Pontificating that there is only sinning for Christian theists comes off rather weak in light of your practical daily life.

Do you have keys to lock up everything because only Christians live in your neighberhood ? Of course you fear a transgression of morality against ANYONE - Christian or not. A crime is a crime is a crime in many cases. Right?

for only the believers of a particular god can sin against that particular god according to whatever the particular god they believe in finds sinful.

Not all would agree with you here, as indicated in Dictionary.com's entry on the word.

The Bible's delving into and exposing the nature of SIN if to help you not to beat you down.

The medical doctor who does an X-Ray to show you the CANCER growing in your body has in mind to HELP you !! You should not consider the Bible's expounding on SIN and SINS and SINNING as your enemy to beat you down and make you miserable. It is God's love to reveal to you that something has gone wrong in you.

Christ came concerning our salvation from sin and sinning.

non believers recognize no such particular god nor any notion of things that are sinful to a non-existent god, ergo they cannot be sinners.

So the set of keys you have to lock up your possessions is only for religious people ?

There is not much difference in your reaction if a Theist steals your car or an Atheist steals it. I think you would be just as upset either way. I can't see you calling the POLICE if it was a Atheist but only informing the Reverend or local Pastor if it was a Theist.

Either way, you know a transgression has taken place against you. God need not be involved. Someone had a moral lapse and committed an inequality of ethical behavior against YOU so as to injure YOU - a genuine iniquity, a sin, a crime, a transgression.

I hear your philosophy but I doubt that you LIVE that way on a day to day basis.

they can have faults. they can commit unbelievable crimes against humans, animals and property. but they can commit no crimes against a god or gods of any sort.

You hope or assume there is no God. You don't really KNOW that there is no God.

But if God is the Ultimate Governor of the universe it stands to reason that a transgression AGAINST a fellow man is a transgression against God's moral order in creation.

If I harm you and you don't even know that I did so, I still will have to answer to the One who KNOWS what I did in secret.

[edit: additionally, unbelievers cannot commit haram. only muslims can commit haram]

You can take that up with a Muslim. As a Christian I simply point out that you don't live as if ONLY a Christian can commit a sin. Your set of keys testifies that you're concerned about stealing whether from a Theist or non-Theist.

Splitting philosophical hairs here is just a kind of semantic word game.

Originally posted by Suzianne
However, my "Bible God" is there just the same. You [b]choose to reject Him. And simply because you cannot sense His presence. How sad.[/b]

However, my "Bible God" is there just the same.

No he's not, my parents are living people made of atoms that i can experience with my senses. I can pick up the phone this very moment and talk to them, do you have a phone number for God?

You [b]choose to reject Him.[/b]

Nope. How can i reject something i don't think exists? Surely rejecting something means i have to acknowledge it's existence in the first place?!

And simply because you cannot sense His presence

But if i can't sense his presence surely that's his fault? He did after all create me with the faculties i have, if they don't work properly what fault is that of mine?

How sad.

Not really. You start by telling me i've chosen to reject him, and then tell me i've not sensed his presence. If i've not sensed his presence how can i chosen to have rejected him? You're argument (as per usual) doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Not really. You start by telling me i've chosen to reject him, and then tell me i've not sensed his presence. If i've not sensed his presence how can i chosen to have rejected him? You're argument doesn't make any sense.

Not believing He exists is a convenient "way out" for atheists who try to justify their choice to reject Him. Here's how I and many other Christians see it: God exists, therefore your claim that He does not exist is a rejection of Him on the face of it.

Little kids learn early on that they can temper their fear of the "boogeyman" by simply believing he doesn't exist. Atheists don't seem to have ever grown up to learn how to believe in something larger than themselves.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Not believing He exists is a convenient "way out" for atheists who try to justify their choice to reject Him. Here's how I and many other Christians see it: God exists, therefore your claim that He does not exist is a rejection of Him on the face of it.

Little kids learn early on that they can temper their fear of the "boogeyman" by simply believing h ...[text shortened]... t seem to have ever grown up to learn how to believe in something larger than themselves.

So many points to pick up on but we'll start with this one.

How do i go about 'sensing' God?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Not believing He exists is a convenient "way out" for atheists who try to justify their choice to reject Him. Here's how I and many other Christians see it: God exists, therefore your claim that He does not exist is a rejection of Him on the face of it.

Little kids learn early on that they can temper their fear of the "boogeyman" by simply believing h ...[text shortened]... t seem to have ever grown up to learn how to believe in something larger than themselves.

Are you being serious here or are you just trying to get a rise out of PK?

Originally posted by Suzianne
That won't cut the mustard where the rubber meets the road.

The last guy who dared to cut the mustard where the rubber meets the road got run over. 😛

Originally posted by jaywill
Then you would have to do an extensive presumptuous re-write of the book of [b]Acts. It certainly includes Peter's and the other apostles' first gospel messages.

And in them He was crucified for also claiming to be the Son of God, the Christ.

ie. "The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus, ...[text shortened]... "You are My Son; Today I have begotten You" Compare Acts 13:33 and Psalm 2:7.[/b]

I dunno, I was really looking for alternate theories to that presented in the Bible.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I dunno, I was really looking for alternate theories to that presented in the Bible.

I dunno, I was really looking for alternate theories to that presented in the Bible.

Why ?

What is in the Bible simply cannot be true ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And do you notice how I, as an atheist do not believe in God? I therefore find you arrogant in your belief that God exists and that God told you this or that and that you KNOW all this stuff without evidence or reason. Sorry, but blaming the fairies just doesn't cut it when nobody else believes in fairies. Ask any young girl.

and that you KNOW all this stuff without evidence or reason.

----------whitey----------------------------------

I could talk about evidence and I could explain reasons , but since you have a preset parameter for what qualifies as "evidence" then I would always be on a loser.

For example , one (just one of them) of the reasons/evidence for me believing personally is the deep experience of God's love ,peace and presence with me and in my being. The love that God has for me is just overwhelming and stunning. It's like nothing on earth and once I experienced His presence I knew that life could never be the same again. I can't put this love in a test-tube for you nor can I produce a graph or formula for you to analyse. But every fibre of being knows that it is something very precious and special and something gifted to me.

Until you get in touch with His presence you will only vaguely understand this but one day it might happen and then you will realize that you have been standing in God's presence all along but just didn't recognize Him.

There is a knowledge and a place of understanding that pure science will never reach. You can't go there with your head. You go there with your whole being.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So many points to pick up on but we'll start with this one.

How do i go about 'sensing' God?

If you really want to know I can maybe help you with this. However , I fear you may be asking a rhetorical question rather than a serious inquiry.

Originally posted by knightmeister
and that you KNOW all this stuff without evidence or reason.

----------whitey----------------------------------

I could talk about evidence and I could explain reasons , but since you have a preset parameter for what qualifies as "evidence" then I would always be on a loser.

For example , one (just one of them) of the reasons/evidence for me will never reach. You can't go there with your head. You go there with your whole being.

That would require praying and probably confessing sins to remove the insulation over one's heart.

Most hard core atheists are totally unwilling to do this.
But prayer, ie. talking with God through the exercise of the human spirit, is the way forward towards Him.

Since real spiritual prayer is like a salmon fish swimming vigorously upstream of a powerful downward current, most skeptics consider it a waste of time.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christians often get stick for being arrogant or being bold about the truth or claiming exclusivity for the truth etc etc

However , if you consider the person of Jesus what He said and who He claimed to be we are actually left with little choice. He said He was THE truth , THE life and THE way. He claimed an exclusive position , as the ONLY one who ...[text shortened]... said , then you will know why we make these claims.

And if you like - Take it up with Him.

I used that like button for the first time on this post. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Typical CS Lewis/Josh McDowell style apologetics.

McDowell says that there are only three options: accept Jesus as lord, denounce him as a liar, or brand him a lunatic. But this a false trichotomy. As rwingett points out, there is a fourth choice: you can claim that Jesus was misquoted by the Bible's authors. Some biblical scholars, like Bart Ehrman f ...[text shortened]... won out over their opponents. The cliche "History is written by the victors" comes to mind.

I would say if you want to say your forth choice is any different than the
fraud one I'd say you are splitting hairs looking for a difference without a
distinction. Missing out on the Son of God will be due to those choices you
make them.
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill

I dunno, I was really looking for alternate theories to that presented in the Bible.

Why ?

What is in the Bible simply [b]cannot be true ?[/b]

The Bible wants me to believe that guy died and came back to life 3 days later. I just don't think that sort of thing is likely to happen.

If that part of the story is false/added on, then maybe some of the other stuff was added on too, like Jesus being sentenced to death for claiming to be the Son of God [not just King of the Jews].