End Times

Originally posted by bbarr
I like the reincarnation part the best. Nero lives!

Eschatology (while a valid part of any solid theology) is typically the obsession of those wishing to escape reality.

Originally posted by bbarr
Wait, so you actually believe all this? Yikes!

Not without reasons which I derive from careful analysis of Scripture. I have just not gone into detail.

Some would probably whine that I am just "proof texting".

Anyway, the examination of passages on the subject matter form the basis for the things I wrote.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Eschatology (while a valid part of any solid theology) is typically the obsession of those wishing to escape reality.

Not necessarily.

Firstly, because others handle it that way does not mean that you have to.

Secondly, I view it something like what I was told is taught to Karate students. To break a board they often are told to focus on a point in space beyond the board. That gives them the drive to plunge their fist through the board.

To see the end result in prophecy often equips the believer with the boldness to pass through the trials of today. We know that we are on the winning side. We know that Christ's inevitable victory is secure.

This gives us strength in our daily troubles and oppositions of today. So prophecy is often an incentive to pass through unpleasant realities rather than as you say escape from them.


Nice try though.

Originally posted by jaywill
Not without reasons which I derive from careful analysis of Scripture. I have just not gone into detail.

Some would probably whine that I am just "proof texting".

Anyway, the examination of passages on the subject matter form the basis for the things I wrote.

O.K., so it was careful analysis of Scripture that led you to the belief that the after the assassination of the antichrist he will rise again imbued with the spirit of an ancient Roman emperor? I'd certainly love to see the exegetical methodology! Could you reconstruct, at least in outline form, what leads you to think that Nero will be wearing the flesh suit of the assassinated antichrist?

Originally posted by jaywill
He will be assinated.

Sounds painful. Although if it happened to me, I'd like to think my response would be more proportionate.

Originally posted by bbarr
O.K., so it was careful analysis of Scripture that led you to the belief that the after the assassination of the antichrist he will rise again imbued with the spirit of an ancient Roman emperor? I'd certainly love to see the exegetical methodology! Could you reconstruct, at least in outline form, what leads you to think that Nero will be wearing the flesh suit of the assassinated antichrist?

Do you really want to hear it?

What's your general attitude towards the Bible? If I take the time to go into some detail will I get the Invisible Pink Unicorn treatment?

I'll put in the time to explain some if you're just a little open minded. But it will have to be latter.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The majority of the worlds population believes in the supernatural so why should something like the rapture seem especially impossible?

[b]If you really do believe in Jesus, then you'll believe the Bible and everything it says that happened, and what will happen.
I would guess that the majority of Christians do not agree with you on that one, it i ...[text shortened]... t? From what I know of revelations there the signs are that the end times are far from close.[/b]

I would guess that we have already entered the end times, end pretty soon the rapture will take place.

So you mean christians will be raptured before the antichrist's reign?

From a biblical point of view, this is quite unholdable...

Originally posted by Nicksten
Has any one read the Left Behind series by Jerry B Jenkins and Tim LaHaye? I now understand more about the end times, and have read the series twice.

I would say that all of the things mentioned in the series are true, except from where the anti-christ will come from. I dont think anyone will know exactly. He could be a pope, minister, president, he act tty soon the rapture will take place.

Some will agree and some wont. Lets hear your story?

[b]Has any one read the Left Behind series by Jerry B Jenkins and Tim LaHaye? I now understand more about the end times, and have read the series twice.

I think Tim LaHaye's position on pre-rapture is quite unholdable from a biblical point of view. Would you be able to defend his point of view using your Bible? Would be curious how you'd do it... Let's open another thread on rapture /pre-rapture.

Originally posted by bbarr
O.K., so it was careful analysis of Scripture that led you to the belief that the after the assassination of the antichrist he will rise again imbued with the spirit of an ancient Roman emperor? I'd certainly love to see the exegetical methodology! Could you reconstruct, at least in outline form, what leads you to think that Nero will be wearing the flesh suit of the assassinated antichrist?

Bbar,

Here are some notes on the identity of the Antichrist. But I don’t have time for a long debate on it. And only some points are included here. And it is still an interpretation.

The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth, … when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will be persent …” (See Revelation 17:8)

This person, the beast or the Antichrist "WAS" before the time of John’s revelation and writing of it. He "IS NOT" at the time of John’s speaking. But he ”WILL BE PRESENT” at some time future to John’s writing.

The first piece of evidence is therefore arguably that this person existed previous to John’s writing, is dead while John is writing, and will be again or live again sometime future to John’s writing. By this some of us deduce that this is some past figure brought back to life.

This person was, and is dead when John writes, and is to be present sometime future to John’s writing. We are also told why he will be present. He is ”about to come up out of the abyss”. We may take this to mean that he will return from death and from the whole realm of the dead in some time future to John’s writing of Revelation.

Do you follow this logic so far? Up to this point some of us believe that someone died and will return from the abyss in the future. He lived prior to John writing the book of Revelation.

Bbar, if you follow me up to this point let me know before I continue, please. ( I don’t mean that you have to agree ). Do you follow the logic generally?

Originally posted by jaywill
Bbar,

Here are some notes on the identity of the Antichrist. But I don’t have time for a long debate on it. And only some points are included here. And it is still an interpretation.

[b]The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth, … when they see the beast, ontinue, please. ( I don’t mean that you have to agree ). Do you follow the logic generally?

I'm completely lost at what you are saying. I'm curious as to some of the sources and writers that influence your ideas about all this.

Let me offer this. If you were imprisoned on an island (Patmos) and you wanted to write to the churches of that time, would it not make sense to write in such a way as to be symbolic and even masking in some creative way what you wanted to say?

Originally posted by jaywill
Not necessarily.

Firstly, because others handle it that way does not mean that you have to.

Secondly, I view it something like what I was told is taught to Karate students. To break a board they often are told to focus on a point in space beyond the board. That gives them the drive to plunge their fist through the board.

To see the end result i ...[text shortened]... through unpleasant realities rather than as you say escape from them.


Nice try though.

Notice I said "typically," not "necessarily." More specifically, immature Christians obsess about the 'signs of the times,' which they project onto the age in which they find themselves. Seems no one wants to die in Christ: the immature would rather have the fireworks.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Notice I said "typically," not "necessarily." More specifically, immature Christians obsess about the 'signs of the times,' which they project onto the age in which they find themselves. Seems no one wants to die in Christ: the immature would rather have the fireworks.

I agree.

Originally posted by jaywill
Bbar,

Here are some notes on the identity of the Antichrist. But I don’t have time for a long debate on it. And only some points are included here. And it is still an interpretation.

[b]The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth, … when they see the beast, ...[text shortened]... ontinue, please. ( I don’t mean that you have to agree ). Do you follow the logic generally?

I'm not interested in a debate about the merits of your beliefs, but I am very interested in the manner in which you interpret Scripture. Please continue.

Originally posted by bbarr
I'm not interested in a debate about the merits of your beliefs, but I am very interested in the manner in which you interpret Scripture. Please continue.

So far I have referenced Revelation 17:8 to establish that the person known as the beast ”was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition … [those] … will marvel when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will be present”

It is obvious that the purpose of the passage is to tell us something about ”the beast” which John saw in the same chapter. You will have to verify this yourself.

Now there is a problem. Is ”the beast” a singular person or representative of some collective entity? If the beast represents something collective then it cannot represent Nero a particular person. There is indeed ground to say that the beast here is symbolic of a collective entity. However, it is also clear that it is a symbol of the individual head of that collective entity.

This is demonstrated in verses 10 and 11:

”And there are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a short time. (v.11)

And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eighth and is out of the seven and goes into perdition .”(v.12)

Here we have our proof that the beast also represents an individual person a king. He is of a set of seven individual kings and yet is also the eighth. Follow closely:

1.) The beast is one of seven kings - ”the beast … is out of the seven”

2.) The beast is also the eighth king – ”the beast … is also the eighth”

So this person has this paradoxical origin. He is OF Seven and yet is the Eighth. Do you follow this so far? He is OF Seven kings and yet he is the Eighth.

This can be interpreted (with other indications of course) that one of the Seven kings dies and returns to life to be the Eighth. That is one way that this person could be OF the Seven kings and also the Eighth king.

So what have I so far attempted to establish?

The beast is an individual person. The beast was not alive when John was writing Revelation. However previous to that time he was alive.

The beast is to come up out of the abyss. Though I have not mentioned much about the abyss you can verify for yourself that the abyss in Revelation is also a source of some demonic beings. It’s a bad place and it has to do with death. That is all I wish to say now. The beast is to live again some time after John’s writing. And this he will certainly do by coming up out of the abyss.

I have also tried to establish that this person belongs to a set of seven kings. At the same time as being among seven kings he himself will be the eighth king.

This should agree with the fact that he was and is not yet shall be again. He was one of the seven. When he is alive again he is not only one of the seven but is the eighth. He is in the set of seven and he is an addition to the set of seven to be the eighth king.

Do you follow this logic so far? I still have not given reason why it should be Ceasar Nero. But perhaps you can see the plot is thickening a little, so to speak.