Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Indeed, and i answered Chaney's question. I do not believe it is possible for human beings to live a life free of sin. When Jesus asked the person who was without sin to cast the first stone, he knew that nobody would be able to claim a sinless existence.

Tangents make life interesting. Do you not believe Jesus died for the sins of mankind?

Just because none of us can do it on our own does not mean that is not the standard.
So then can help be given to us who find ourselves in a winless place? Yes!

Originally posted by checkbaiter

As we are transformed by the renewing of the mind, we tend to sin less and less. This will be culminated at the appearing of Jesus when we will be totally changed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is helpful.

Proverbs 4:18 shows that way of righteous living in God is like (or should normally be like) the rising of the sun. That is increasing in light.

"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, Which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Prov. 4:18)

The Apostle Paul in the midst of his exemplary spiritual life said that he did not account himself to have arrived at perfection. He always sought to press on to "gain Christ". That is to be filled more in his soul and living with Jesus Christ. See Philippians 3: 7 -11.

Not only he stretched forth to gain more Christ, not being self satisfied or resting on his laurels, but when he stumbled he got up and continued in the race.

It must be so because he was human. And Proverbs also shows the righteous stumbles but gets up again and again to continue.

" For a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, But the wicked are overthrown by calamity." (Proverbs 24:16)

In the path like the dawning of the rising sun, if the Christian stumbles and transgresses, he takes the blood of Jesus for his conscience, and for his smooth fellowship with God. And he rises up from stumbling and continues.

Notice at the end of Paul's life when he was expecting to die, he had confidence that he would be rewarded with "the crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS". That is not a crown of justication by faith or a crown of mercy or a crown of forgiveness.

In this case it is now a crown of righteousness for his righteous daily living. And he receives it now from the Merciful Savior (though He is merciful indeed). The reward is received from "the Righteous Judge".

Here is Paul's confidence at the end.

" I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; i have kept the faith.

Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day ..." (2 Tim. 4:8)

Notice that here it is not a matter of GIFT but of RECOMPENSE.
He expects this reward in addition to the GIFT of eternal life. And he expects it from "the Lord, the righteous Judge".

It is a reward also "to all those who have loved His appearing". In other words it is not to some elite special class. It should be the normal result of all who love the Lord and live for His appearing.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Once again: Should what Paul taught trump Jesus and God? Why?

Respectfully, you seem a little confused yourself asking such a question to an atheist.

Take away divine inspiration and it's 'all' just human accounts of ancient events.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Respectfully, you seem a little confused yourself asking such a question to an atheist.

Take away divine inspiration and it's 'all' just human accounts of ancient events.

Let's see GoaD, you've already posted the following on this thread:

My interpretation is that he was saying "Go, and don't do that again. learn from your mistake." (He was speaking specifically about the sin of adultery, not telling her to lead a sinless life, which of course is impossible for a human being).

But don't listen to me, i'm just an atheist.

My point was that if man was meant to live a sinless life, why was it necessary for Jesus to die for the sins of humanity and bring us redemption?

Indeed, and i answered Chaney's question. I do not believe it is possible for human beings to live a life free of sin. When Jesus asked the person who was without sin to cast the first stone, he knew that nobody would be able to claim a sinless existence.

So you've established that you're an atheist that's been more than willing to offer your opinions about the Bible, yet you accuse me of being "confused" for having asked a question about the Bible of you.

Plus you edited my post to remove the part that showed your confusion about Chaney3's question, so that you could avoid having to own up to it.

You've once again proven yourself to be the troll that you are.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's see GoaD, you've already posted the following on this thread:
[quote]My interpretation is that he was saying "Go, and don't do that again. learn from your mistake." (He was speaking specifically about the sin of adultery, not telling her to lead a sinless life, which of course is impossible for a human being).

But don't listen to me, i'm just a ...[text shortened]... avoid having to own up to it.

You've once again proven yourself to be the troll that you are.

Thanks for that.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
When Jesus quoted this, man was still under the Law. The Law was meant to bring man to his knees and ask for mercy. Man is not capable of not sinning.
When Jesus said man's righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee, he knew it was impossible.
This is understood as a future event. After Jesus was crucified and raised, the new birth became availabl ...[text shortened]... ess and less. This will be culminated at the appearing of Jesus when we will be totally changed.

When Jesus quoted this, man was still under the Law. The Law was meant to bring man to his knees and ask for mercy. Man is not capable of not sinning.

In John 8:31-36, Jesus is speaking to a group of Jews that believed Him. He tells them that if they continue in His word, they will be His true disciples, be made "free" and no longer commit sin. In your mind, Jesus tells them this even though "man is not capable of not sinning". So Jesus was lying to them?

When Jesus said man's righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee, he knew it was impossible.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is addressing a large crowd:

Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
.
Jesus give several examples of what is and isn't righteous.

48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So in your mind, Jesus tells this crowd that they are to be perfect - and not just perfect, but "as {their] heavenly Father is perfect, even though "He knew it was impossible". Can anyone spot the trend here?

Now even though Christians still sin, in their "spirit they cannot sin". I think this is what Jesus was referring to.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
NKJV

What does "in their 'spirit they cannot sin'" mean?

That "Whoever has been born of God" cannot sin? That doesn't make sense because it clear says that "he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"

That "His seed" cannot sin? That doesn't make sense because it clearly says "he cannot sin" - not "it cannot sin".

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Thanks for that.

Meaning?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Thanks for that.

Ghost, I hold your opinions in high regards. I hope you don't mind me saying....but, maybe some posters don't know that you studied Theology at a University level, and are an atheist today.....despite the vast knowledge you posses regarding the Bible, God, and other religions. Many new threads could be started to find out why a person with such knowledge of God, and the Bible would still be an atheist. I am still fascinated by that.

P.S. When Jesus told the woman to 'go and sin no more'......He could have clearly said it differently. He could have said 'go and commit no more adultery'...but, He did not. He said 'go and sin no more', which could mean that He was implying that she should not commit any more sins.....including adultery. Which as we know, is impossible. I am curious why He said such a thing.

Originally posted by chaney3
Ghost, I hold your opinions in high regards. I hope you don't mind me saying....but, maybe some posters don't know that you studied Theology at a University level, and are an atheist today.....despite the vast knowledge you posses regarding the Bible, God, and other religions. Many new threads could be started to find out why a person with such knowledge o ...[text shortened]... ...including adultery. Which as we know, is impossible. I am curious why He said such a thing.

Can you address my response to you on page 2?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can you address my response to you on page 2?

Yes, I will look at it now.....thanks.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]When Jesus quoted this, man was still under the Law. The Law was meant to bring man to his knees and ask for mercy. Man is not capable of not sinning.

In John 8:31-36, Jesus is speaking to a group of Jews that believed Him. He tells them that if they continue in His word, they will be His true disciples, be made "free" and no longer commit sin. ...[text shortened]... doesn't make sense because it clearly says "[I]he[/I] cannot sin" - not "[I]it[/I] cannot sin".[/b]

Our nature has been polluted with sin so it will always be tainted with sin. Being born again
means that we get God's Spirit within us and while we are walking in the Spirit of God we
will not sin. This should clear up why we need Jesus as it is only through Him that we can
be born again. Those who think they can just do enough good works will still being walking
as a sinner and sin will be apart of them.

In addition to being born again provision has been given us, the grace of God through faith
for if we fail to follow the Spirit. This is not a means to sin without regard, anyone born
of the Spirit of God will be striving to follow the Spirit of God. Our salvation is due to God
not due to are ability, we cannot claim we are good enough there is nothing we can do to
reach that level of righteousness. So what we are doing is get cleaned by God to walk with
Him through Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by chaney3
We are saved by grace. Not by works, lest a man should boast.

I have been reading in various threads about (Rak) claiming that a Christian should be doing works for salvation.

And KellyJay claiming that grace (through Jesus) is what brings salvation.

According to these verses...it would seem that works will accomplish nothing.

As a believer in J ...[text shortened]... will always fall short it seems, regarding the sin issue, because only Jesus can be 'sin-free'.

Read the first chapter of Ephesians it is spelled out very well there.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can you address my response to you on page 2?

Your post seems to suggest that both God and Jesus expect us humans to live a life free from sin. Or.....we are doomed to hell.

If I am wrong about this, please let me know. However, I don't see how it could be possible for any human to be 'sin free'. It just doesn't seem possible. And, as Ghost pointed out......if humans could actually live a sin free life, then why did Jesus have to die on the Cross?

Originally posted by chaney3
Your post seems to suggest that both God and Jesus expect us humans to live a life free from sin. Or.....we are doomed to hell.

If I am wrong about this, please let me know. However, I don't see how it could be possible for any human to be 'sin free'. It just doesn't seem possible. And, as Ghost pointed out......if humans could actually live a sin free life, then why did Jesus have to die on the Cross?

Did you read through what Jesus and God said in John 8 and Ezekiel 18 respectively?

Like I said, "Both Jesus and God expect man to be not only capable of no longer committing sin, but state that it's required."

What's remarkable is how many Christians don't "believe" them - don't "believe in" them.

Instead they seem so entrenched in dogma that they can't "hear" their words.

if humans could actually live a sin free life, then why did Jesus have to die on the Cross?

You seem to be alluding to "substitutionary atonement" here. Is that right?

If so, what leads you to believe this concept?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Did you read through what Jesus and God said in John 8 and Ezekiel 18 respectively?

Like I said, "Both Jesus and God expect man to be not only capable of no longer committing sin, but state that it's required."

What's remarkable is how many Christians don't "believe" them - don't "believe in" them.

Instead they seem so entrenched in dogma that th ...[text shortened]... bstitutionary atonement" here. Is that right?

If so, what leads you to believe this concept?

About a month ago, or so, the Pope made a comment that he believes that once Jesus was crucified on the cross.....that ALL humans were saved. Regardless of who or what they believe, ALL are saved. To me, that makes sense.

I am fully aware that this conflicts with the 'Holy Bible'. But, I have maintained an attitude that maybe our Bible is not the 'say all'. And, I have been criticized heavily for admitting this. Maybe we put too much emphasis on the Bible, and NOT on the deed that was done by Jesus.