Escaping Eternal Torment

Originally posted by sonship
You cannot find fault with the New Testament. You cannot rise above Christ, critique Christ, and sit in judgment of one word of His teaching to the world on forgiveness of enemies or anything else.

I am asking you about you said about yourself. Not about the NT. Your words are being subjected to critique here. The issue is whether there is some justification in using the "relish" - as opposed to its use to describe how you feel assisted by the 'fact' that there is eternal torture for non-believers around you - simply being branded a "lie".

Folks, in the past I think we discussed forgiveness of enemies. I probably wrote something to the effect that concerning transgressions God said that vengence is His and that He will repay.

It is not the eagerness to see your enemy punished that motivates forgiveness.
It is however the realization that a final balancing of the moral scales cannot fail to happen because of God. He will repay. He will balance the scales. Calvary is a central part of this.

Now concerning MY sins against others HE did repay on the cross of Calvary. Christ died and accepted the wrath of judgement on my behalf for my transgressions against others.

I can wish the same for others. As far as it is possible, as it depends on the grace we have, we are told to live in peace with all men, with holiness. So it is the deep conviction that NO ONE is getting AWAY with anything, including sonship, which can furnish me with the power to forgive others.

This is not forgiving with a hidden expectation "Boy are YOU going to get it someday!" No. This is forgiving with a realistic sense that God cannot fail to balance the moral scales of the universe. Vindication is left up to God as God wills.

Originally posted by sonship
I probably wrote something to the effect that concerning transgressions God said that vengence is His and that He will repay.

...and that 'knowing' this helps you live your Christian life, right?

Originally posted by sonship
Now concerning MY sins against others HE did repay on the cross of Calvary. Christ died and accepted the wrath of judgement on my behalf for my transgressions against others. [...] So it is the deep conviction that NO ONE is getting AWAY with anything, including sonship, which can furnish me with the power to forgive others.

How can you believe BOTH [1] your "sins against others" are forgiven already and that you are already guaranteed eternal life, AND [2] "no one is getting AWAY with anything, including sonship"?

Originally posted by FMF
I am asking you about you said about yourself. Not about the NT. Your words are being subjected to critique here. The issue is whether there is some justification in using the "relish" - as opposed to its use to describe how you feel assisted by the 'fact' that there is eternal torture for non-believers around you - simply being branded a "lie".

Your words are being subjected to critique here.

Sure. Absolutely, MY words are subject to critique.

And you know what? The true seekers of God will know that and say to themselves - 'Well that is what sonship says. Let me check that with what God says in His word."

So some will come before God on that day and try to excuse themselves -

"Well this guy sonship was wrong when he tried to teach me about Jesus. So you see, I didn't believe."

And others will say "Lord Jesus, on the way I heard from Joe, bob, Sarah, sonship, and Earl. I kept coming to until I met You Lord Jesus. I was so hungry for God, I somehow kept coming for You. "

Originally posted by sonship
Sure. Absolutely, MY words are subject to critique.

And you know what? The true seekers of God will know that and say to themselves - 'Well that is what sonship says. Let me check that with what God says in His word."

So some will come before God on that day and try to excuse themselves -

"Well this guy sonship was wrong when he tried to teach m ...[text shortened]... coming to until I met You Lord Jesus. I was so hungry for God, I somehow kept coming for You. "

This sounds very much like a deflection, heavy on the tangential verbiage.

Are you flat out denying that what I paraphrased was essentially what you said and meant about you and your "enemies" and their supposed eternal torture?

Originally posted by sonship
"Well this guy sonship was wrong when he tried to teach me about Jesus. So you see, I didn't believe."

The question is, was Rakj999 really so wide of the mark when he used the word "relish"?

Originally posted by FMF
So you are flat out denying that that was essentially what you said and meant?

Yes.

That was not essentially what I said and meant.

Meaning - I forgive men and concealed is a relished thought of them getting bad done to them. That is essentially your twisted version of what I wrote.

Originally posted by sonship
Yes.

That was not essentially what I said and meant.

Meaning - I forgive men and concealed is a relished thought of them getting bad done to them. That is essentially your twisted version of what I wrote.

Why are you putting your words in my mouth and attacking them instead of the actual words that are still there on the previous page?

Here is the question again:

Didn't you once say that the prospect of your dissenters and "enemies" being tortured for eternity made your Christian life easier because you found it easier to forgive them in the here and now?

Originally posted by sonship
Folks, in the past I think we discussed forgiveness of enemies. I probably wrote something to the effect that concerning transgressions God said that vengence is His and that He will repay.

It is not the eagerness to see your enemy punished that motivates forgiveness.
It is however the realization that a final balancing of the moral scales cannot fail ...[text shortened]... ot fail to balance the moral scales of the universe. Vindication is left up to God as God wills.

You know I don't need to forgive my enemies ...

I never vilified them in the first place

Originally posted by karoly aczel to sonship
You know I don't need to forgive my enemies ...

I never vilified them in the first place

Well, of course, to sonship, his enemies (people with different beliefs) are routinely villified as diseased, serpents, demons, depraved, maggot infested, Satanic rebels, and so on and so forth ad nauseam, so he needs the notion that they will be tortured forever to help make it easier to forgive them for their thoughtcrimes.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You know I don't need to forgive my enemies ...

I never vilified them in the first place

That's good.
Me? I need the Savior Christ.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, of course, to sonship, his enemies (people with different beliefs) [b]are routinely villified as diseased, serpents, demons, depraved, maggot infested, Satanic rebels, and so on and so forth ad nauseam, so he needs the notion that they will be tortured forever to help make it easier to forgive them for their thoughtcrimes.[/b]

Without caricatures you are lost for good arguments.

a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

make or give a comically or grotesquely exaggerated representation of (someone or something).

https://www.google.com/search?q=caricatures&oq=caricatures&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.16261j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Originally posted by FMF
Why are you putting your words in my mouth and attacking them instead of the actual words that are still there on the previous page?

Here is the question again:

Didn't you once say that the prospect of your dissenters and "enemies" being tortured for eternity made your Christian life easier because you found it easier to forgive them in the here and now?

I don't think you are going to get an answer; I expect sonship is nervous about denying it as he may suspect you (or I) have the original thread handy.

Originally posted by sonship
Without caricatures you are lost for good arguments.

It was a description and not an argument. And I think it was spot on target.