Essence of the Tantric Path

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I have nothing against individuals,whether they are americans or others. What did upset me was that the system of Yoga was being equated with a health club. Ramakrishna Paramhans whom many deem to be an incarnation of God in modern times died of cancer and Swami Vivekananda was a severe diabetic. Both were Yogis having reached the pinnacle of liberation t ...[text shortened]... into upliftment of others. Hindu saintly and mystic tradition simply ignores bodily afflictions.

That may be true but if so it looks to me like a selfish road, since if they HAD taken care of their bodies by whatever means possible, tantric or not, they could have lived a much longer life and therefore helped many more people on the path. So it sounds like they were more concerned with their individual spiritual uplifting more than the people around them.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That may be true but if so it looks to me like a selfish road, since if they HAD taken care of their bodies by whatever means possible, tantric or not, they could have lived a much longer life and therefore helped many more people on the path. So it sounds like they were more concerned with their individual spiritual uplifting more than the people around them.

Some do choose the path of the boddhisatva

Originally posted by CalJust
Hi Taoman and rvsakhadeo,

I last posted in this Forum in August 2009 (I checked!) Since then, I hope that I have gotten at least a little wiser and a lot less judgemental...

This thread, and in particular this paragraph caught my eye. I can totally identify with it in my journey. I have also had experiences where I have been - sometimes for moments all ...[text shortened]... rtain we can never know it all...

Welcome, brothers. We are pilgrims on the same quest.

CJ

Please do accept my belated but heartfelt thanks for your brotherly message ! In Sanskrit,there is a couplet that says we are like pieces of floatsam which while being tossed around on the waves of the ocean,come together and travel together for a brief span of time and then are separated from each other by the waves,never to meet again. So God has wished that you,Taoman,and myself should contact each other at least for some time and kindred souls that we are,let us share our views and experiences as we travel on the path.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That may be true but if so it looks to me like a selfish road, since if they HAD taken care of their bodies by whatever means possible, tantric or not, they could have lived a much longer life and therefore helped many more people on the path. So it sounds like they were more concerned with their individual spiritual uplifting more than the people around them.

It looks that I may have to rank you on an equal footing with 667joe. That is because both of you have made statements, equally perverse and offensive, about the incarnations of God. 667joe called Jesus a sadist and you called Ramakrishna Paramhans,Vivekanand as selfish ! I earnestly repuest you to surf the web or look up any sources on the two saints and decide for yourself if your statement is true.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
It looks that I may have to rank you on an equal footing with 667joe. That is because both of you have made statements, equally perverse and offensive, about the incarnations of God. 667joe called Jesus a sadist and you called Ramakrishna Paramhans,Vivekanand as selfish ! I earnestly repuest you to surf the web or look up any sources on the two saints and decide for yourself if your statement is true.

All I am saying is he could have helped more people if he took the time to tend to his body. Severe diabetics lose body parts, that can't be good.

Also, don't take anything I say as a negative towards your religion, it is probably 1/1000th as violent as Islam or Christianity. Like the man said, they are neither Christ like or Mohammed like.

Originally posted by sonhouse
All I am saying is he could have helped more people if he took the time to tend to his body. Severe diabetics lose body parts, that can't be good.

Also, don't take anything I say as a negative towards your religion, it is probably 1/1000th as violent as Islam or Christianity. Like the man said, they are neither Christ like or Mohammed like.

I once again request you to surf the web and read about these two great souls. If you have a substantial library nearby,please do read the two separate biographies on them by Romain Rolland translated from french by E.F. Malcom-Smith.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I once again request you to surf the web and read about these two great souls. If you have a substantial library nearby,please do read the two separate biographies on them by Romain Rolland translated from french by E.F. Malcom-Smith.

I read the Wiki piece on Ramakrishna. I didn't know these guys were 19th century, so my medical opinion is worthless🙂 He could not have done anything about throat cancer. Was there any ritualistic smoking of some kind that may have led to his cancer? Didn't sound like it. There is one known way but I hesitate to even mention it.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I read the Wiki piece on Ramakrishna. I didn't know these guys were 19th century, so my medical opinion is worthless🙂 He could not have done anything about throat cancer. Was there any ritualistic smoking of some kind that may have led to his cancer? Didn't sound like it. There is one known way but I hesitate to even mention it.

Ramakrishna never smoked. He did not practice any ritual exept the worship of Kali which he was anyway required to do as an appointed priest. He was not a Tantric.

Originally posted by Taoman
Yes. And the way of avoidance of the "impure world" doesn't work, because of the reasons you mention.
Rejection and condemnation never healed anything, never made anything whole again.
Being forced to a "good" way by the threat of rejection and punishment works at a very primitive level, of perhaps containment and protection, but does not win the heart usu ...[text shortened]...

"For and against,
For and against,
For and against,

Going nowhere."

I had hoped to see some kind of answer to whodey's question.

Who decides what is good or bad? It seems to me that an objective standard must needs be in order for you or I or anyone else to make a judgement concerning human conduct. It seems to me that if one is going to use words like, "good, bad, rejection, impure, punishment, pride, acceptance, poor, better, conflict", and so on, an objective standard should be recognised.

"Inner conflict" exists because of an imbalance due to the consequences of one's thoughts, words and actions. Consequences exist because of the conflict between right and wrong.

Whose right and wrong? By that I don't mean "who is", but "whose" standard. Is that standard just an arbitrary set of rules occurring by chance through some cosmic evolution? But we're not talking about the laws of nature here. This is about Truth as it relates to our thoughts, words and deeds.

Originally posted by josephw
I had hoped to see some kind of answer to whodey's question.

Who decides what is good or bad? It seems to me that an objective standard must needs be in order for you or I or anyone else to make a judgement concerning human conduct. It seems to me that if one is going to use words like, "good, bad, rejection, impure, punishment, pride, acceptance, poor, ...[text shortened]... of nature here. This is about Truth as it relates to our thoughts, words and deeds.

Who said anything about arbitrary? It is the common good that you don't revile in cannibalism for instance. Nothing arbitrary about that. Murdering people is not in the common good. Theft is not in the common good. There is no need to constantly refer to a non-existent god to define that. This is not rocket science. If you see someone getting whipped you try to stop it. If you see someone getting tortured you stop it if you are able. Same with rape, robbery, murder in progress. No god is going to stop atrocities, only humans. We are fully intelligent enough to see the difference. Religious people denigrate human intelligence when they constantly obsessively call on 'god's' word for guidance.

Exactly like the UFO nuts who claim the ancient Egyptians were too dumb to have built the pyramids by themselves, could never have lifted multi-ton rocks 400 feet in the air, therefore UFO's are real because they HAD to have come down and having nothing better to do, build the pyramids for the ancients. Therefore UFO's are real.

You go from one fairy tale to another all the while forgetting to actually live in the real world, instead having your head firmly up the asss of heaven.

Originally posted by whodey
This is a facinating thought. The world should be ignored due to its "impurities"? Who decides what is an impurity and is not? Who decides what is "real" and what is not?

Here's what I think. Turning away from a world is OK for hermits or what are in essence groups of same, as the early residents of Cappadocia, but doesn't change anything in terms of responsibilities. Each of us has responsibility to decide what is an "impurity" and what is "real." Each of us also has a responsibility to decide whether and how to ignore the world. To whom are we responsible? Initially, only to ourselves, then as we enter into committed relationships with others, to the society so formed. A committed relationship can be as little as having a neighbor with whom we tacitly agree to live peaceably. So we do not ignore their interests in favor of our own. These responsibilities and decisions may be enshrined by a people in their religion, but this does not shift responsibility.

The catch is that what is actively ignored can define one's situation as much as if it were not ignored.

/end spouting off mode.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
What do you mean that the Mantra worked? Did you chant it purely for getting relief from mental stress? If so, even ' I and my mummy are one ' will do the trick,as some pschychiatrists think. We are not talking about remedies for illnesses but the search for Truth/ God/Ultimate Reality which is what Yogic Sadhana is about. It is a penance prescribed in Hindu Spiritualism. Nothing to do with religion.

Meditation is meditation. A mantra is a device to assist the process. I don't see how you can claim that a 'penance prescribed in Hindu Spiritualism' has nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by Taoman
Yes. And the way of avoidance of the "impure world" doesn't work, because of the reasons you mention.
Rejection and condemnation never healed anything, never made anything whole again.
Being forced to a "good" way by the threat of rejection and punishment works at a very primitive level, of perhaps containment and protection, but does not win the heart usu ...[text shortened]...

"For and against,
For and against,
For and against,

Going nowhere."

But you note that we are looking for "healing". From what specifically? It sounds to me that you recognize things that are "bad" but then distance yourself from them as if to ignore them so as to imply that those "bad" things really don't exist.

Does ignoring something or looking at them in a different light change them? In fact, why would we seek change if there is nothing "bad" to condenm?

Originally posted by josephw
I had hoped to see some kind of answer to whodey's question.

Who decides what is good or bad? It seems to me that an objective standard must needs be in order for you or I or anyone else to make a judgement concerning human conduct. It seems to me that if one is going to use words like, "good, bad, rejection, impure, punishment, pride, acceptance, poor, ...[text shortened]... of nature here. This is about Truth as it relates to our thoughts, words and deeds.

My reference was in the context of different spirtual paths not to using daily judgements of right and wrong. This is not meant to be a post about ethical decision making. Not did I seek to avoid whodey's statement, but I may have misunderstood his reference.
In Tantra the spiritual path seeks to include the rejected things as means to seeing how the power of the Divine can even through such work and transform. This is against the ascetic attitude (in all religions) of cutting oneself off from the impure (however that is defined for them) world in order to know the divine through the pursuit of purity and truth and the rejection of impurity and faslehood.

What is impure/pure and what is true false is always a great debate and always it appears to me, without final definite outcome. The only definite outcome is one own's decision and behaviours arising from that. Guidance yes, final absolutes, I can't see.

I would answer more fully but cannot at present, so must return later.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Meditation is meditation. A mantra is a device to assist the process. I don't see how you can claim that a 'penance prescribed in Hindu Spiritualism' has nothing to do with religion.

I meant that spiritual practices as practiced by Hindu Saints,Yogis,Mystics had only one aim namely realization of God. Hindu Religion is unstructured having a vast domain,comprising of several philosophies,any number of cultures,subcultures, a host of gods and goddesses, beliefs,superstitions. Hindu spiritualism is a compact discipline,comparatively.