Essence of the Tantric Path

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I meant that spiritual practices as practiced by Hindu Saints,Yogis,Mystics had only one aim namely realization of God. Hindu Religion is unstructured having a vast domain,comprising of several philosophies,any number of cultures,subcultures, a host of gods and goddesses, beliefs,superstitions. Hindu spiritualism is a compact discipline,comparatively.

Of course I may be wrong, but I think that there is a danger in excessive ritualisation of the process of self-realisation through meditation. Also, I firmly believe that if there is a god, or god-head, or nirvana or whatever, it must be accessible to any of us without instruction from other people. Of course it may also be accessible with instruction, but at the same time it seems to me that such instruction may be not only not beneficial, but possibly even harmful.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I meant that spiritual practices as practiced by Hindu Saints,Yogis,Mystics had only one aim namely realization of God. Hindu Religion is unstructured having a vast domain,comprising of several philosophies,any number of cultures,subcultures, a host of gods and goddesses, beliefs,superstitions. Hindu spiritualism is a compact discipline,comparatively.

However, realisation of God is anyway impossible since God does not arise; the so called "realisation of God" is to me noise and distraction, nothing but just another projection of the mind.
Thus I have heard:
Suchness does not move, yet its function is inexhaustible.
Constantly thinking, yet nothing is pursued.
The pursuit is of the original no-thought.
😵

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
It looks that I may have to rank you on an equal footing with 667joe. That is because both of you have made statements, equally perverse and offensive, about the incarnations of God. 667joe called Jesus a sadist and you called Ramakrishna Paramhans,Vivekanand as selfish ! I earnestly repuest you to surf the web or look up any sources on the two saints and decide for yourself if your statement is true.

For being one who strives to achieve transcendence and inner peace you sure do seem to get aggravated easily.

Repeat after me: "Calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean..."

Originally posted by Soothfast
For being one who strives to achieve transcendence and inner peace you sure do seem to get aggravated easily.

Repeat after me: "Calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean..."

Reg.your annoyance about me getting annoyed, a story from Buddhist lore. A monk and his young disciple come wandering to a river which they want to cross, when a beautiful young woman who also wants to cross,requests their help. The monk asks her to climb on his shoulders. She is then carried across. The young monk asks his guru after they walk away how he could violate the vows of celibacy so casually. The old monk replies that he has dropped her on the shore but the youngster seems to be still carrying her.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Reg.your annoyance about me getting annoyed, a story from Buddhist lore. A monk and his young disciple come wandering to a river which they want to cross, when a beautiful young woman who also wants to cross,requests their help. The monk asks her to climb on his shoulders. She is then carried across. The young monk asks his guru after they walk away how ...[text shortened]... k replies that he has dropped her on the shore but the youngster seems to be still carrying her.

Hmm...

Yes...I see...yes...

Except, rather tellingly, you assume I was annoyed. In actual fact my prior observation was largely motivated by a desire to lend moral support to the objects of your annoyance. Plus, there is the admittedly gratuitous lure of poking an ant hill with a stick to see what might happen... 😉

Originally posted by josephw
And they say that those who believe in God are delusional.

Sorry Taoman. I enjoy our encounters in this forum because you are one of the few that remain objective whenever I reply to you. I appreciate that. We keep the lines of communication open by respecting each other's person while questioning the validity of what is posted.

Unfortunately sometimes ...[text shortened]... seems will say anything to the contrary about what you posted. Why is that? Isn't it obvious?

His views have nothing to do with the Bible. He was expressing his own spiritual views. Why do you assume everything is about your faith? And how do you presume to judge his/her faith by your criteria?

To paraphrase Carly Simon - this song isn't about you.

Originally posted by black beetle
However, realisation of God is anyway impossible since God does not arise; the so called "realisation of God" is to me noise and distraction, nothing but just another projection of the mind.
Thus I have heard:
Suchness does not move, yet its function is inexhaustible.
Constantly thinking, yet nothing is pursued.
The pursuit is of the original no-thought.
😵

Dear friend, I had to dig into a lot of books pertaining to Hindu spiritual practice,in order to give you the Yogic view on this. Ramdas,a 17th century saint and a yogi,in western India,says that a stage comes while meditating when the world of senses has been left behind but realisation of God/Universal Reality/Truth has not come about. At that point,the practitioner feels the calm of nothingness which he mistakes for the ultimate peace. But that is not the last point. The practitioner should persist and he will realise God.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Dear friend, I had to dig into a lot of books pertaining to Hindu spiritual practice,in order to give you the Yogic view on this. Ramdas,a 17th century saint and a yogi,in western India,says that a stage comes while meditating when the world of senses has been left behind but realisation of God/Universal Reality/Truth has not come about. At that point,the ...[text shortened]... peace. But that is not the last point. The practitioner should persist and he will realise God.

Of course!
And then, my friend, after this realisation, in my tradition one merely rejects this yiddam/ projection as a projection of her/ his own mind -although one can also keep up concetrating There. It's Only Us!

Different traditions, the same deep respect for Life though.
Namaste
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
However, realisation of God is anyway impossible since God does not arise; the so called "realisation of God" is to me noise and distraction, nothing but just another projection of the mind.
Thus I have heard:
Suchness does not move, yet its function is inexhaustible.
Constantly thinking, yet nothing is pursued.
The pursuit is of the original no-thought.
😵

We differ little on the core BB, but in non-dual Tantra I see something helpful and good, perhaps for those of different personal makeup etc..

"Suchness does not move, yet its function is inexhaustible...", - its this inexhaustable function, where my feeling is that Buddhist and the related "no entity" has a slight wanting of wider vision, - function, the active manifestation symbolised by Shakti/shaktis within Trika Tantra.
Let me first remind ourselves that "no entity" means no entity with inherent existence of itself, because of dependent origination. Once one moves from that position one moves into dualism, as you will realise. In effect we are always caught between "the one" and "the two", neither existing nor not existing", etc.

In Trika (shorthand for principal school in Kashmir Shaivism) this is well understood and the imaginal forms, names and murtis, as with Buddhist Tantra, (that stay with many mulitple forms of Buddhas}, the path is to move through the functioning multifarious manifestation including sentient beings to recognise at different levels and in different ways the heart-mind of the Ineffable suchness, indescribable finally, but certainly not without deep foundational qualities of such as Mind/Awareness, Creative power and compassion.
The danger of cold nihilism flirts with excessive emphasis on the Absence/Sunyata, and tends to the lessen the other aspect, not at all separate, but rather the principal presentation of the functioning phenomenal world so full for the Living Aware Experient/Mind that beholds and enjoys in through and beyond us and is in fact the materiale of its manifestation. It cannot be lesser.
There is the other danger with Tantric practice that I have found, to subtly find oneself tending back to dualistic thinking.
Seeking to being aware of this, I find there is a warmth and color, aliveness and embracing within these Tantric paths to the Great One of All Mind and Good with its own all-dependent Manifestation, that complements the deep philosophical wonders of Buddhism.

[edits typographical]

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Of course I may be wrong, but I think that there is a danger in excessive ritualisation of the process of self-realisation through meditation. Also, I firmly believe that if there is a god, or god-head, or nirvana or whatever, it must be accessible to any of us without instruction from other people. Of course it may also be accessible with instructio ...[text shortened]... it seems to me that such instruction may be not only not beneficial, but possibly even harmful.

Good reminder comment, ATC. Any good taken to excess loses balance. It happens in every path. There is a security and familiarity with rituals, which is helpful to some, while others like me, can do with enough that keeps me centred.
My "religious gene" kicks now and then though and I get right into it just to express it and enjoy it for what it is. Its a personal thing really. Later on I laugh at myself. For others it is, perhaps with envy, it becomes a structure to their whole lives, including their family life. Sometimes we in the West miss the opportunity of that. Ritual is an aid, not a legalistic requirement to me.

Read a few accounts of people that have had "Recognition" with no prep at all, not involved with any system or excessively religious. But some event/crisis helped them see beyond with a more whole vision and made a big difference.
I don' t feel a sudden "enlightment" is necessarily for all, there are different ways to fuller recognition, because we are all different. For some, guidance and teaching is definitely the helpful way.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Taoman
We differ little on the core BB, but in non-dual Tantra I see something helpful and good, perhaps for those of different personal makeup etc..

"Suchness does not move, yet its function is inexhaustible...", - its this inexhaustable function, where my feeling is that Buddhist and the related "no entity" has a slight wanting of wider vision, - function, th ...[text shortened]... that complements the deep philosophical wonders of Buddhism.

[edits typographical]

We agree in full. And I do not take too much emptiness either -nirvana and samsara: the same.

Fast Zen pace now: Nihilism (as if being inherently existent) is dualism, endless projections of the mind (as if...) is dualism, dualism per se (as if...) is a distraction, realisation of this and that (as if...) is a distraction; thus the pursuit is etc. etc.. Thus "breaking the barriers of the patriarchs" and "realisation" are too different horses and still the same, the Path is the same, the Way is One, the Way is beyond "realisation", and at last you are There now:
The pursuit (of the Way, my Taoman) is of the original no thought. Vast Emptiness!


Namaste
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
We agree in full. And I do not take too much emptiness either -nirvana and samsara: the same.

Fast Zen pace now: Nihilism (as if being inherently existent) is dualism, endless projections of the mind (as if...) is dualism, dualism per se (as if...) is a distraction, realisation of this and that (as if...) is a distraction; thus the pursuit is etc. et it (of the Way, my Taoman) is of the original no thought. Vast Emptiness!


Namaste
😵

The Path of No-Path is of necessity also the Path of All-Paths, no differentiation.
There now, but also not there now, no differentiation.
No Thought, yet there is thought, no differentiation.
No gods, yet mind produces gods, no differentiation.
Vast Emptiness yet utter plenitude, no differentaition.
The same, all equal, as you say.

Now which path is this foot in at this moment? Ah, that one, yes, ok lets now enjoy that delightful projection of the One, not an edge in sight, yet so full of form. Here is one of Shiva dancing, I think I'll join in.

Namaste.

Originally posted by Taoman
The Path of No-Path is of necessity also the Path of All-Paths, no differentiation.
There now, but also not there now, no differentiation.
No Thought, yet there is thought, no differentiation.
No gods, yet mind produces gods, no differentiation.
Vast Emptiness yet utter plenitude, no differentaition.
The same, all equal, as you say.

Now which path is ...[text shortened]... in sight, yet so full of form. Here is one of Shiva dancing, I think I'll join in.

Namaste.

Join in, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. When I begun to understand I ended up ignorant😵

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Dear friend, I had to dig into a lot of books pertaining to Hindu spiritual practice,in order to give you the Yogic view on this. Ramdas,a 17th century saint and a yogi,in western India,says that a stage comes while meditating when the world of senses has been left behind but realisation of God/Universal Reality/Truth has not come about. At that point,the ...[text shortened]... peace. But that is not the last point. The practitioner should persist and he will realise God.

The problem I see with this path is this: What if all 7 billion humans practiced this way? There would be no food produced, no cloth, no protection against predators, etc. We would shortly die of starvation.

That is what I mean by the obsession of religion. Meditating your way through life is hiding from life with assurances the next life will be oh so great. Meanwhile you starve in this life.

I assume your answer will be 'this path is not for everyone', which makes it elitist, we are too good for the general public.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The problem I see with this path is this: What if all 7 billion humans practiced this way? There would be no food produced, no cloth, no protection against predators, etc. We would shortly die of starvation.

That is what I mean by the obsession of religion. Meditating your way through life is hiding from life with assurances the next life will be oh so ...[text shortened]... his path is not for everyone', which makes it elitist, we are too good for the general public.

No. Two Truths still hold, therefore meditation doesn't mean that the existence of the Floating World should be either discarded or neglected.

After our meal, we wash our cup😵