1. Standard memberKepler
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    14 May '13 10:03
    Apparently the doctrine of eternal torment was an invention of the Lateran Council of 1215. So where does that leave our favourite instructor and his notions of hellfire and damnation?

    My own opinion is that this is yet more evidence that his version of christianity is just men, especially RJ, making it up as they go along.
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    14 May '13 10:12
    Originally posted by Kepler
    Apparently the doctrine of eternal torment was an invention of the Lateran Council of 1215. So where does that leave our favourite instructor and his notions of hellfire and damnation?

    My own opinion is that this is yet more evidence that his version of christianity is just men, especially RJ, making it up as they go along.
    Yes its essentially pagan in nature, anyone can see that its borrowed from the ancient Greeks who ascribed various eternal tortures to miscreants.
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    14 May '13 10:43
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes its essentially pagan in nature, anyone can see that its borrowed from the ancient Greeks who ascribed various eternal tortures to miscreants.
    a bit like the flood.
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    14 May '13 10:52
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    a bit like the flood.
    hardly.
  5. Dublin Ireland
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    14 May '13 10:54
    Repent for the end it at hand!
    Turn ye away from wickedness and be cleansed.
    Ring this special number now for salvation

    1 800 666 666.

    Don't delay lest you be devoured by the beast.










    The Vibrator.
  6. Standard memberKepler
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    14 May '13 11:01
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    a bit like the flood.
    The various attitudes to the flood puzzle me.

    Young earth creationeedjits blame all sorts of stuff on the flood. Glacial features? Must have been the flood. Fossil fish on mountain tops? Must have been the flood.

    Those that accept the great age of the earth and so on generally regard the flood as some kind of allegory or a tribal memory of a big, but not global, flood.

    THe JWs seem to inhabit a kind of between world. From discussion with some of them it appears they accept the 4.5 billion year age of the earth, the general sequence of species becoming extinct and so on. They are happy to accept fossils as being ancient, rock formations as taking a long time to form but when we get to the flood we are back to using fish on mountain tops as evidence for the flood rather than the result of tectonic uplift. Have your cake and eat it geology and theology.
  7. Standard memberKepler
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    14 May '13 11:02
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    Repent for the end it at hand!
    Turn ye away from wickedness and be cleansed.
    Ring this special number now for salvation

    1 800 666 666.

    Don't delay lest you be devoured by the beast.










    The Vibrator.
    Any particular beast?
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    14 May '13 11:07
    Originally posted by Kepler
    The various attitudes to the flood puzzle me.

    Young earth creationeedjits blame all sorts of stuff on the flood. Glacial features? Must have been the flood. Fossil fish on mountain tops? Must have been the flood.

    Those that accept the great age of the earth and so on generally regard the flood as some kind of allegory or a tribal memory of a big, but no ...[text shortened]... flood rather than the result of tectonic uplift. Have your cake and eat it geology and theology.
    nom nom nom!
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    14 May '13 11:08
    Originally posted by Kepler
    Any particular beast?
    Hopefully a 22 year old female gym instructor.
    Someone like that can devour me anytime.



    Seriously though, I'm not big on religion.
    If religion was the right way for humanity to go
    then there would only be one religion and not
    lots of different religions.

    I think that while you are here you should try to live
    a good life. Do your best and show kindness to others.
    Live life as you would like others to treat you.
    If you are kind and helpful then maybe others will be
    helpful and kind to you.

    I believe that when you are dead you are gone. Finished.
    Never to be seen again. Not in this life or any other.
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    14 May '13 11:09
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    hardly.
    the gilgamesh flood is just a coincidence is it?
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    14 May '13 11:11
    Originally posted by Kepler
    The various attitudes to the flood puzzle me.

    Young earth creationeedjits blame all sorts of stuff on the flood. Glacial features? Must have been the flood. Fossil fish on mountain tops? Must have been the flood.

    Those that accept the great age of the earth and so on generally regard the flood as some kind of allegory or a tribal memory of a big, but no ...[text shortened]... flood rather than the result of tectonic uplift. Have your cake and eat it geology and theology.
    just like all arguments with robbie. he cherry picks bits of information that he thinks supports his view and ignores those that conflict. totally unable to take an objective view on anything.
  12. Standard memberKepler
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    14 May '13 11:13
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    Hopefully a 22 year old female gym instructor.
    Someone like that can devour me anytime.



    Seriously though, I'm not big on religion.
    If religion was the right way for humanity to go
    then there would only be one religion and not
    lots of different religions.

    I think that while you are here you should try to live
    a good life. Do your best ...[text shortened]... are dead you are gone. Finished.
    Never to be seen again. Not in this life or any other.
    That's my thought on it as well. If the afterlife stuff existed someone would have come back to tell us how wonderful heaven is/nasty hell is. That this doesn't happen suggests either those two destinations don't exist or god's marketing department isn't putting in sufficient effort.
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    14 May '13 13:204 edits
    When Jesus was rejected by one of the cities in which he preached, two of His disciples asked Him to draw fire down from heaven and burn them up.
    Jesus rebuked them.

    "And as the days were being fulfilled for Him to be taken up, He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem.

    And He sent messengers before His face. And they went and entered into a village of the Samaritans to prepare for Him. And they did not receive Him, because His face was set to go to Jerusalem.

    And seeing this, the disciples James and John said, Lord do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them ?

    But turning, He rebuked them and said, You do not know of what kind of spirit you are. The Son of Man has not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. And He went into another village." (Luke 9:51-56)


    I would make some following observations about this passage:

    1.) Obviously, every disciple of Jesus who is fuming and eager to see God bring punishment down upon those unreceptive to Jesus, are NOT all of the same spirit as Jesus.

    Jesus was appalled at the eagerness of James and John to request divine punishment. He rebuked them that His coming was to save men and not to destroy them.

    2.) Yet we cannot deny that from the very same mouth, that of Jesus Christ, came warnings of awful everlasting consequences of never being reconciled to God. I count this fact as beyond dispute.

    3.) This means to me that there is:

    a.) improper and sadistic eagerness of ignorant men of God's wrath, not in accord with God's heart.

    b.) But there must be also righteous divine punishment - accomplished at the right time, for the right reason, in the right way, which is absolutely righteous.

    There is no other way for me to reconcile the two attitudes portrayed in Scripture.

    My main concern, as an evangelical follower of Jesus, is not with the perversions of mean spirited eagerness displayed by the over zealous James and John. They had another spirit at the moment.

    My concern is with that salvation from the judgment of God which Christ teaches is the just and righteous consequence that SHOULD occur.

    Some object "There is NO eternal damnation that SHOULD occur." But though I wanted to be persuaded of that, I could not. And I subjected myself to the best arguers of it I know.

    But at this point I resolve that there is an attitude towards the matter which is of the wrong spirit. And there must be an attitude concerning it which is of the same spirit as that of Jesus, which calls for no rebuke from Him.
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    14 May '13 13:29
    Originally posted by sonship
    When Jesus was rejected by one of the cities in which he preached, two of His disciples asked Him to draw fire down from heaven and burn them up.
    Jesus rebuked them.

    [b]"And as the days were being fulfilled for Him to be taken up, He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem.

    And He sent messengers before His face. And they went and entered into ...[text shortened]... ning it which is of the same spirit as that of Jesus, which calls for no rebuke from Him.
    james and john seem like psychopaths. why is jesus hanging out with dudes like that anyway. doesnt the bible say you should choose your friends wisely?
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    14 May '13 13:393 edits
    james and john seem like psychopaths. why is jesus hanging out with dudes like that anyway. doesnt the bible say you should choose your friends wisely?

    They got rebuked and they got educated. And they went on to mature and become more representative ambassadors of Christ.

    And I would say all who would follow Jesus, start out as incompatible with Him. But they are DISCIPLED. They are taught. They are perfected.

    We Christians are glad that there is some record about HOW they were perfected by their Master.
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