08 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999===============================
You said :
I am thankful that I received a realistic teaching about eternal punishment as a young child.
All parents who scare their kids to good behavior are stupid parents. Some use the Bible others the police. Some use ficticious characters .. like Dracular or some animal. Those are stupid parents. You dont need to tell kids about eternal punis ...[text shortened]... hen thats your personal interpretation. Its not truth. I hope you can understand the difference.
You said :
I am thankful that I received a realistic teaching about eternal punishment as a young child.
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That's what I wrote. That's what I meant. So?
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All parents who scare their kids to good behavior are stupid parents.
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sigh !!
This is a whole different discussion. And I will not embark on your presuppositions right now. I will only say two things:
1.) Bad behavior and disbelief in salvation are somewhat distinct matters. I would want my children to be fearful of rejecting the forgiveness offered in Christ's Redemption.
Does that mean that that is the ONLY motive for following Jesus? No, of course not.
2.) You must not have raised children. Most parents WANT thier kids to fear getting the consequences of doing harmful things.
Please do not tell me that a SPANKING is not also intended to put fear in the child NOT to do something.
If you will not spank your little kid for playing with matches or for running out into the street when you warned him not to do so, then maybe YOU are the one who is acting stupidly.
You smack your boy on the BEHIND to save him from doing something latter. Because the POLICEMAN is not going to smack him in the behind. The cop is going to clobber him in the skull !
So sometimes you DO want to instill fear in your child to SAVE them from a WORSE consequence latter in life, IF YOU LOVE THEM.
Does that mean that is the ONLY way to raise your kid to do right ??? Of course not.
Hey I have to add stuff for people who are EAGER to misunderstand.
08 Aug 09
4 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999====================================
Lets do one point at a time: Rev 20:10 reference to eternal torment applies specifically to Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet.
Why do you apply that eternal torment to all humanity whose names are not in the book of life. Or, tell me which groups of people it applies to.
Lets do one point at a time: Rev 20:10 reference to eternal torment applies specifically to Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet.
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1.) Revelation 20:10 has the Devil, his antichrist, and his false prophet in the lake of fire which is the second death.
2.) Since Matthew 25:41 speaks of "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" I assume that said "eternal fire" must be that which is described as his final destiny in Rev. 20:10)
3.) Since Matthew 25:46 speaks of "these shall go away into eternal punishment ..." and said "eternal punishment" refers to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" I assume that OTHER lost humans are ALSO joining the devil in this terrible fate.
4.) Since Revelation 14:10,11 also speaks of rebellion humans who will undergo "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" I have to include that THESE people ALSO must suffer the terrible fate of Rev.20:10 and Matt. 25:46.
5.) Since Revelation 20:15 says that ALL whose names were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire, I assume that THESE unfortunate ones ALSO partake of that terrible punishment.
That should be enough to indicate that Revelation 20:10 will be the consequence of more people and beings then the Devil, the Antichrist, and the false prophet.
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Why do you apply that eternal torment to all humanity whose names are not in the book of life. Or, tell me which groups of people it applies to.
===================================== [/b]
Revelation 20:15 discribes the last Judgment. And it says:
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
I think you should stop thinking about this. I think you should spend some equal time at least to study how Jesus saves us from such a fate.
I think also you should not be troubled by unknowns. We may not have ALL the details. We have enough knowledge of this to be saved through Christ, preach the Gospel to others.
Do not try to figure out all hypothetical and difficult cases to arrive as a systematically perfect case. Take what we know and respond with faith and thanksgiving for it.
The decision as to whose names go into the book of life is God's, is Jesus Christ's who so deeply LOVES sinners.
The Judge of all the earth will do justly. Don't try to answer every possible hypothetical difficulty.
I admit some unknowns myself. But what I do know, I respond to.
08 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999No answer? Christ said his judgment is just.
Lets do one point at a time: Rev 20:10 reference to eternal torment applies specifically to Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet.
Why do you apply that eternal torment to all humanity whose names are not in the book of life. Or, tell me which groups of people it applies to.
The Devil and his angels will be tormented for ever and ever. I agree.
But you say all of humanity who are not given salvation will end up with the same fate of eternal torment .. that clearly is not just judgment and it is not in the Bible. If it is please quote the verses.
Edit : Just saw your answer. Your 2, 3, 4, 5 are assumptions, which you admit to.
Is this assumption and conclusion = the truth you speak of?
You have to be kidding me. Truth is the clear teachings of Christ. You cannot assume and expect to find truth. You have an interpretation, and the more assumtions you make the further you are likely to go from truth.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999\ Read the post above for my answer.
No answer? Christ said his judgment is just.
The Devil and his angels will be tormented for ever and ever. I agree.
But you say all of humanity who are not given salvation will end up with the same fate of eternal torment .. that clearly is not just judgment and it is not in the Bible. If it is please quote the verses.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillI disagree.
... I think you should stop thinking about this.....
I think its fine to think about all and every aspect of the Bible, as long as you are able to separate fact from speculation, crystal clear doctrine from personal interpretation which can be biased.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelYou can believe something isn't dangerous, screw with it and die your
Sorry but that sort of thinking will have to be relegated to the historical scrapheap. Our thoughts are powerful but rather than me thinking that something is either true or not I rather like to focus on positive, practical improvements in the world. Even 'meditate' on them.
You can continue until you are blue in the face with your out-dated beliefs ...[text shortened]... w emerging reality. Remember I did not say you were wrong , just that you will have to adjust.
beliefs don't change reality! You can believe what you will about your
own thoughts, that they create or mold the universe around you, they
again set your assumptions, your preconceived ideas, your beliefs yet
they do not always reflex reality. If you think you are that important or
your thoughts that powerful you really have arrogance issue.
Kelly
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJaySome things are true whether we think and/or believe them or not.
You can believe something isn't dangerous, screw with it and die your
beliefs don't change reality! You can believe what you will about your
own thoughts, that they create or mold the universe around you, they
again set your assumptions, your preconceived ideas, your beliefs yet
they do not always reflex reality. If you think you are that important or
your thoughts that powerful you really have arrogance issue.
Kelly
08 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999These few points of mine you call assumptions. I suppose you mean they are wrong assumptions. well let's examine them.
No answer? Christ said his judgment is just.
The Devil and his angels will be tormented for ever and ever. I agree.
But you say all of humanity who are not given salvation will end up with the same fate of eternal torment .. that clearly is not just judgment and it is not in the Bible. If it is please quote the verses.
Edit : Just saw your answer. Y ...[text shortened]... an interpretation, and the more assumtions you make the further you are likely to go from truth.
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2.) Since Matthew 25:41 speaks of "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" I assume that said "eternal fire" must be that which is described as his final destiny in Rev. 20:10)
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HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF IT IS ANOTHER ETERNAL FIRE ??
So making Matthew 25:41 be some place DIFFERENT from Revelation 20:10 STILL does nothing to exempt the condemned people to whom Jesus says:
"Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)
You will probably object and say "Yea, but that is on only those people in Matthew 25 and not all people whose names are not written in the book of life."
Okay. That is true, if that is your objection. Now, let's consider. If Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil went there to be tormented forever and ever, and that is NOT the same place as discribed in Matthew 25:41,46 what would that mean ?
It would mean that God changed His mind and the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels was replaced by some OTHER eternal fire prepared for the Devil. That theorized OTHER eternal fire is in Revelation 20:10.
1.) That does not make much sense, for God to change His mind about one eternal fire and create another that does exactly the same thing.
2.) Even if He did change His mind, it still does nothing to exclude the lost people of Matthew 25:41,46. In the eyes of God it has already been accomplished:
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment." (v.46)
I think the objection is flimsy. And since #1 (God replaced one damnation for another) seems unlikely, you STILL have all those whose names are not written in the book of life going to the lake of fire, the second death.
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3.) Since Matthew 25:46 speaks of "these shall go away into eternal punishment ..." and said "eternal punishment" refers to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" I assume that OTHER lost humans are ALSO joining the devil in this terrible fate.
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You imply that this is a weak assumption. Multiple places of damnation make little sense. And at least one of them is where those whose names have not been written in the book of life go (Rev. 20:15)
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4.) Since Revelation 14:10,11 also speaks of rebellion humans who will undergo "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" I have to include that THESE people ALSO must suffer the terrible fate of Rev.20:10 and Matt. 25:46.
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Theorizing multiple places of damnation does not change the fact that ONE of them is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life go (Rev. 20:15)
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5.) Since Revelation 20:15 says that ALL whose names were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire, I assume that THESE unfortunate ones ALSO partake of that terrible punishment.
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Multiple eternal fires make no difference. It is a silly theory. And it doesn't do anything to exclude those whose names are not written in the book of life from going to "the lake of fire" which is "the second death"
Furthermore, it is logical that Matthew 25:41,46 be disclosed distinct from Revelation 20:15).
Matthew 25:41 concerns those living at the end of the Great Tribulation BEFORE the Millennium (Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1). It differs from the judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 - of the DEAD AFTER the end of the millennium.
Now you tell me WHERE in the Bible it shows that God changes His mind, and "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" in Matthew 25 He decides to replace with another eternal fire indicated in Revelation 20.
You have, I think, no such proof of that assumption of yours. And it would not do anything for you anyway because Revelation 20:15 STILL has those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life going to a place of eternal fire where it told us concerning Antichrist's followers "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" (Rev. 14:11)
1.) That is not the smoke of their annihilation. That is the smoke of their TORMENTING.
2.) You may object this way:
"Well those followers of Antichrist are tormented forever and ever. But those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life may not be tormented forever and ever."
I will deal with that argument latter, if it is your next argument. And I will be fair about it.
08 Aug 09
Rajk999,
Two points. One a question and the other an explanation of me suggesting that you not think about this matter of eternal damnation too much.
First the question:
What would you think if I were able to show you I have reason to believe the Bible shows some human beings who are not born again Christians DO have their names written in the book of life ?
Now the point about "not thinking about it."
I sometimes tell people this based upon what the angel TOLD John the Revelator in chapter 21.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:9)
This is right after John observing the lost in verse 8 - "their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death."
The Bible could have simply said that an angel came to tell John to now look at the New Jerusalem. But it specifies "... one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spole with me..."
It seems here that one of the angels responsible for carrying out the wrath of God wants John to get his eyes off of this terrible matter and look at the fulfillment of God's positive eternal purpose - the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb, the Divine / Human City New Jerusalem as the consummation of God's salvation.
"Come here, and let me show you something much better to consider." is the flavor of Revelation 21:9.
For this reason, Rajk999, I sometimes tell people that they should not meditate on this matter of eternal damnation to the inclusion of the more positive things of God's will.
The Universalist theologian would teach that ALL creatures eventually will be reconciled to God. I have SERIOUSLY considered this. But from what has been thus far revealed to me in the Bible, I can't see that.
I do expect some surprises. I am not sure that that will be one of them.
God knows.
One more thing. When Revelation lists the kinds of lost sinners that go into eternal perdition, it heads the list with the cowardly:
Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly and the unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicatots and sorcerers and idolaters and all false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death."
Notice that the top of the list is "the cowardly" followed by "the unbelieving". Why is this ?
I think the reason is that SOME people know that the Bible is true but for fear they will not accept Christ's salvation. Perhaps they are afraid of what man will think. Perhaps they are afraid to be identified with saved Christians. For one reason or another, though they believe the truth of the salvation, they are cowardly and do not ask Jesus to save them.
After the cowardly, there is "the unbelieving". They are just people who don't believe what the Bible says.
We should not be unbelieving. And we especially should not be believing but too afraid to ask Jesus Christ to be our salvation from damnation.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillCould the fire mean destruction?
Rajk999,
Two points. One a question and the other an explanation of me suggesting that you not think about this matter of eternal damnation too much.
First the question:
What would you think if I were able to show you I have reason to believe the Bible shows some human beings who are not born again Christians DO have their names written in the ...[text shortened]... g but too afraid to ask Jesus Christ to be our salvation from damnation.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillSuppose I tell you there is a country that has 5 years of torture followed by execution for all crimes, ranging from jaywalking to serial killers. ALL lawbreakers are tortured and executed.
Rajk999,
Two points. One a question and the other an explanation of me suggesting that you not think about this matter of eternal damnation too much.
First the question:
What would you think if I were able to show you I have reason to believe the Bible shows some human beings who are not born again Christians DO have their names written in the ...[text shortened]... g but too afraid to ask Jesus Christ to be our salvation from damnation.
You will say no way. That has to be the most unjust system imaginable.
Well thats what you are saying about Christ... that He is unjust. When in Fact Christ said His judgment is just.
08 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillOk .. I read all you posts carefully. Its not about a different eternal fire, or multiple places of damnation. Its about eternal suffering. Only in the case of the Devil and his angels is the punishment of eternal suffering clearly stated.
Rajk999,
Two points. One a question and the other an explanation of me suggesting that you not think about this matter of eternal damnation too much.
First the question:
What would you think if I were able to show you I have reason to believe the Bible shows some human beings who are not born again Christians DO have their names written in the ...[text shortened]... g but too afraid to ask Jesus Christ to be our salvation from damnation.
Yes, I would believe this - Well those followers of Antichrist are tormented forever and ever. But those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life may not be tormented forever and ever."
Your points about the cowardly and the unbelieving do not apply to me personally.
I think what you have is one possible explanation. But unfortunately it ignores justice which Christ spoke of. How can it be justice to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?
09 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999So why do you believe in eternal suffering for the devil and his angels but not for human beings?
Ok .. I read all you posts carefully. Its not about a different eternal fire, or multiple places of damnation. Its about eternal suffering. Only in the case of the Devil and his angels is the punishment of eternal suffering clearly stated.
Yes, I would believe this - [i]Well those followers of Antichrist are tormented forever and ever. But those whose na ...[text shortened]... to have ONE and ONE ONLY punishment for ALL sins, and the most extreme of punishments at that?
09 Aug 09
Originally posted by whodeyBecause thats what the Bible says.
So why do you believe in eternal suffering for the devil and his angels but not for human beings?
If you believe otherwise, then please quote a verse similar to this one referring to people.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.