Eternal punishment

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not believe God will mix His mercy and punishment, you will either
get one or the other to the nth degree.
Kelly

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I do not believe God will mix His mercy and punishment, you will either get one or the other to the nth degree.
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I agree somewhat. But I can't agree in every case.

Does the record of God's dealings with man bear that out in the Bible?

Is there anywhere you see God limiting His anger or tempering His punishment ?

Think of Cain. Was there any limiting of Cain's punishment there?

Think of other figures in the Bible like the children of Israel. Think about the deporatation to Babylon and the recovery.

Aren't there some times when God restrained some of His anger yet did punish ?

How do you understand this passage ? Zechariah 1:15

Originally posted by barstudd
So in other words you go purely by your own personal opinion, that you are right, and you will argue your opinion is right no matter what....what if you alone are wrong? chances of that happening are extremely high.

Have you seen how complex that book is? miilions of very intellegent people agree with its content so I would Like to see you do better, ... ...[text shortened]... harpen your faith....if you do not read it your comments and your spirit can become very blunt.

OMG!!!! You've become a born again christian...............sorry for the pause, almost fell off my seat laughing.........well the last time I saw you I thought nobody could possibly sink any lower than you were already at. It seems I was wrong. How depressed and low of esteem someone must be to look for a way out than to suddenly become a christian. I used to only feel sorry for you but now my heart aches for your plight. Lets face it stud, you must be right at the bottom now (pretty close to hell I imagine), so you can only go one way. If you feel that you need to turn to religion to regain some sense of worth however I think that you are wrong. Believe in yourself first, then you may rise out of the hell you find youself in. Turning to religion is only admitting that you cannot cope in life making your own decisions. I must admit though with that thin ring of hair you have left you do look like a fransican monk.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
I do not believe God will mix His mercy and punishment, you will either get one or the other to the nth degree.
======================================

I agree somewhat. But I can't agree in every case.

Does the record of God's dealings with man bear that out in the Bible?

Is there anywhere you se ...[text shortened]... His anger yet did punish ?

How do you understand this passage ? Zechariah 1:15[/b]

I'm talking about at judgment day, here all we are getting is His
mercy.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm talking about at judgment day, here all we are getting is His
mercy.
Kelly

Everyone? Me too?

Originally posted by Rajk999
YOU assume.
JAYWILL assumes.

Yet you think you have truth.

Assumptions, guesses, extrapolation, inferences are the enemy of truth.

I'm assuming that once a thing is established as acting a specific way
or it has some specific meaning has been established as true, unless
you can show me some reason to know things have changed or they
don’t mean the same thing because of some alteration I don't believe
they have changed. You it seems acknowledge that the lake of fire will
amount to eternal punishment for some, but you want to introduce
some different result when it comes to others, for no reason than that
is what you want it to mean as near as I can tell.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm assuming that once a thing is established as acting a specific way...

Where was the Lake of Fire established as acting in a specific way?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm talking about at judgment day, here all we are getting is His
mercy.
Kelly

Sorry,

I think I am confusing things here a little.

Eternal punishment is not corrective. It is retribution.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where was the Lake of Fire established as acting in a specific way?

Probably the best place, IMO, to find this out is in Matthew 25:41.

" ... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

What else do we really need to know ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Probably the best place, IMO, to find this out is in Matthew 25:41.

[b]" ... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

What else do we really need to know ?[/b]

Are you deliberately being stupid Jaywill?

Its not WHO the lake of fire is for, its WHAT it does?

Does it kill and torment?
Torment for ever and ever without killing?
What?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are you deliberately being stupid Jaywill?

Its not WHO the lake of fire is for, its WHAT it does?

Does it kill and torment?
Torment for ever and ever without killing?
What?

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Does it kill and torment?
====================

What would you understand by the words " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." ?

Do you read that and think " ... and they will [not exist] day and night forever and ever" ?

That is not what I understand there.

What do you understand by the words " ... and he will be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and the Lamb. And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever ..."?

Do you read that and think " ... and he will be [non-existent] in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their [non-existence] goes up forever and ever." ?

That is definitely not what I understand there.

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Torment for ever and ever without killing?
What?
==============================

Tormenting forever and ever without them passing into non-existence.

Now you answer me. If the human antichrist (the beast) and his false prophet were thrown into a lake of fire in Revelation 20:20, would they not be killed by it ?

" These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. " (see verse 20)

Now that was one thousand years before this event is to take place:

"And the devil, who had deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Now I think that for humans to be thrown into a lake of fire alive would certainly kill them. Yet it says that THEY meaning all three, will be tormented.

Apparently the killed antichrist and the killed false prophet are still there after 1,000 years and THEY will continue to suffer being joined now by their boss the Devil.

What is communicated is clear. Killing and tormenting is the effect.

Non-existence and annihillation into non-being IS NOT. And you are really setting yourself up to be wiser than God and taking up the rebellious endevour to correct His word.

You are rebelling against the word of God and want to correct God.

Jesus spoke of Gehenna saying that the punished would be "salted with fire." Salt is a preservative Rajk999. The word picture of Christ therefore indicates that in eternal suffering God will preserve them for that punishment.

How else would you describe the meaning of the phrase salted with fire? See Mark 9:49.

" ... thrown into Gehenna .... where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

For everyone will be salted with fire." (See mark 9:45 - 49)

Originally posted by jaywill
Jesus spoke of Gehenna saying that the punished would be [b]"salted with fire." Salt is a preservative Rajk999. The word picture of Christ therefore indicates that in eternal suffering God will preserve them for that punishment.

How else would you describe the meaning of the phrase salted with fire? See Mark 9:49.

" .. ...[text shortened]... e fire is not quenched.

For everyone will be salted with fire." (See mark 9:45 - 49)[/b]

From coffman's commentary: This maxim seems to have been triggered in Mark's mind by the mention of fire in the previous verses. And what is the meaning? If we understand "fire" as a reference to the persecutions and tribulations that invariably beset the Christian pilgrimage, it means that none shall be saved except through the endurance of the world's scorn and opposition. Paul expressed this thought as "All that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12). Of course, this is a difficult verse, and all kinds of notions have been advocated as the meaning of it. Certainly, we may set aside the superstition that this is a reference to all souls passing through the fires of purgatory!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Where was the Lake of Fire established as acting in a specific way?

Revelation 20:10-15

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by jaywill
Sorry,

I think I am confusing things here a little.

Eternal punishment is not corrective. It is retribution.

In this life right now God shows us mercy and we also get punished,
and your right it is corrective if we live through it; however, on the
day of judgment thats it, you will recieve one or the other.
Kelly

Thomas Aquinus said by sinning 'one offends God Who is infinite. Wherefore since punishment cannot be infinite in intensity, because the creature is incapable of an infinite quality, it must needs be infinite at least in duration.---Summa Thelogica