Spirituality
11 Jan 12
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21 Jan 12
Originally posted by SuzianneIf you believe in things only if there is evidence to support it then you don't need evidence
What is your evidence that there is no God based on?
to not believe in something because that is the default position until you have evidence.
This is why Atheism, as defined as a lack of belief in god or gods, has no burden of proof.
Now in reality there are plenty of reasons to go further and say that there is evidence
abound that justifies disbelief in particular god concepts, including the god of the bible.
Things like the bible claiming the earth is flat, and the historical tracing of the origins of
monotheism and Christianity as many gods got condensed into one, you can literally trace
the history of people making this stuff up.
However to get to where you are (belief in god) you can't just argue that believing your god
doesn't exist is wrong, you have to go further and prove that your position is right, because
the middle ground of not believing either way is also atheism and the default position of atheism.
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21 Jan 12
Originally posted by SuzianneAgain, total bull.
What I said was, "Those who rely entirely on evidence (without faith) are just as wrong as those who rely entirely on faith (without evidence)."
Evidence and faith are two sides to one coin. To have the truth is to have both sides.
One can believe that God created the universe and still believe in the Big Bang.
As I said before, "Science is the how, Religion is the why."
You need both to comprehend the full truth.
Evidence and faith are not two sides of a coin, and faith has nothing whatsoever to do with finding the truth.
You have indeed said before that "Science is the how and religion is the why"...
However my response is the same in that the mistake is in thinking that there need be a why.
"Why" implies a reason, reason implies a mind, and there is no evidence or reason to suppose that a mind was
involved the the formation of our patch of universe.
To demonstrate that there is/was a "why" you need to demonstrate that there is/was a mind, you have to prove
god exists before your argument holds. To do that requires evidence.
And even if god does exist and did make the universe, simply imagining what he was thinking at the time gets you
no closer to the truth, evidence is still required.
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21 Jan 12
Originally posted by SuzianneThe bible is the poetic ramblings of ancient people who hadn't even caught up with the fact that
We were all told in the Holy Bible. You know, the Word of God?
Obviously the Bible, God, Jesus, all of it, is not science. I've explained in this thread numerous times why there can be no proof (evidence) of God. It requires Faith to know.
Also, those who proclaim that the Bible contains everything one needs to know aren't getting the full picture ...[text shortened]... ho rely entirely on faith." The atheists are just as wrong as the young earth creationists.
the earth wasn't flat and who thought that "thou shalt not kill" was cutting edge morality...
You have said many times why you think there can be no proof of god and your argument is bunk.
If god exists then there is no reason why god can't present evidence of his own existence.
Now you argue that with evidence we can't have faith that god exists because we would know god
existed.
This is true, but one can still make a choice as to whether or not we worship god.
However more to the point... Without any evidence that either god existed, or that the bible is his holy
word, you have absolutely no means of knowing which deity you should believing in on faith.
This is the same argument as pascals wager... Need I remind you how hopelessly flawed and trivially
easy that argument is to destroy?
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/pascal.html
Therefore your statement and position is wrong and insupportable.
21 Jan 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. 😏
I haven't studied the bible, nor do I wish to, nor do I wish to gain faith. It sounds like a remarkably stupid concept to me. Why anyone would want to willingly delude themselves like that is beyond me.
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeNo. My statement may be insupportable by evidence alone, but that does not make it inherently wrong.
The bible is the poetic ramblings of ancient people who hadn't even caught up with the fact that
the earth wasn't flat and who thought that "thou shalt not kill" was cutting edge morality...
You have said many times why you think there can be no proof of god and your argument is bunk.
If god exists then there is no reason why god can't present ev ...[text shortened]... wager.net/pascal.html
Therefore your statement and position is wrong and insupportable.
When I said two sides to one coin, I was speaking of the coin of truth. That coin has two sides, evidence and faith. You cannot fully explore the truth without both sides, because there is truth in faith. Just because you cannot see something, that does not make it nonexistant. Things in the dark are invisible, as are things behind other things. You cannot even assume something does not exist simply because you cannot see it. That thinking is as backwards as religious fundamentalism. Which brings me back to my original statement that you need both sides (evidence and faith) to fully experience truth.
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeThis is the basis and reason for faith.
If god exists then there is no reason why god can't present evidence of his own existence.
Now you argue that with evidence we can't have faith that god exists because we would know god
existed.
This is true, but one can still make a choice as to whether or not we worship god.
No, God cannot present evidence of His own existence. He can certainly prove to certain individuals that He exists: Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Lot, Moses (among others). Throughout the Bible, the persons God proves Himself to are those who already have the Faith to believe in Him. But to show Himself blatantly to all men would eliminate the necessity of Faith. He doesn't want to be your God merely because He shows you that He can crush you like an insect, because then He does not have your Love and Faith but instead your Fear and Dread. The choice whether to worship God or not must be a decision made on Faith alone. It is the only way your choice is truly free. And because your choice is truly free, He also has no choice of your final destination, that choice is totally up to you, and to you alone.
22 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneWhy? It seems somewhat unnecessary. Its those that lack faith that need proof.
He can certainly prove to certain individuals that He exists: Adam, Noah, Job, Abraham, Lot, Moses (among others). Throughout the Bible, the persons God proves Himself to are those who already have the Faith to believe in Him.
And in my experience, people take those Bible stories as evidence, yet you are saying that that is not possible.
But to show Himself blatantly to all men would eliminate the necessity of Faith. He doesn't want to be your God merely because He shows you that He can crush you like an insect, because then He does not have your Love and Faith but instead your Fear and Dread.
He prefers people to imagine his existence (for no apparent reason). No wonder we have so many religions.
The choice whether to worship God or not must be a decision made on Faith alone.
Yet when I ask Christians where that faith comes from, I am assure that it is imposed on them by God and that God picks and chooses who he gives it too.
It is the only way your choice is truly free.
A better phrase would be 'truly random'. A free choice is one where you know full well the reasons for your decision and the impact it will have. A choice where the reasons and impact are hidden from you is not free, it is arbitrary.
Originally posted by SuzianneI disagree - it may be a step too far to absolutely positively affirm that there does not exist anything which we cannot perceive but that's no grounds to stipulate it has some set of properties (as is the case with human invented gods) with no justification other than "faith".
No. My statement may be insupportable by evidence alone, but that does not make it inherently wrong.
When I said two sides to one coin, I was speaking of the coin of truth. That coin has two sides, evidence and faith. You cannot fully explore the truth without both sides, because there is truth in faith. Just because you cannot see something, that do ...[text shortened]... o my original statement that you need both sides (evidence and faith) to fully experience truth.
Indeed, to put it another way, you can't just assume I don't have a favourite number but the moment you put all your trust in the notion that it happens to be, say, 19438357249438 then your position, without good evidence, is indefensible.
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by SuzianneDon't forget about false and true evidence. False evidence causes false
No. My statement may be insupportable by evidence alone, but that does not make it inherently wrong.
When I said two sides to one coin, I was speaking of the coin of truth. That coin has two sides, evidence and faith. You cannot fully explore the truth without both sides, because there is truth in faith. Just because you cannot see something, that do ...[text shortened]... o my original statement that you need both sides (evidence and faith) to fully experience truth.
teachings in both religion and science. 😏
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou have been given the ability to know full well the reasons for your
Why? It seems somewhat unnecessary. Its those that lack faith that need proof.
And in my experience, people take those Bible stories as evidence, yet you are saying that that is not possible.
[b]But to show Himself blatantly to all men would eliminate the necessity of Faith. He doesn't want to be your God merely because He shows you that He can cru ...[text shortened]... have. A choice where the reasons and impact are hidden from you is not free, it is arbitrary.
decision and the impact it will have. You are without excuse, as the
Holy Bible informs all men. 😏
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by AgergWe have faith that there is ample evidence for the existence of God.
I disagree - it may be a step too far to absolutely positively affirm that there does not exist anything which we cannot perceive but that's no grounds to stipulate it has some set of properties (as is the case with human invented gods) with no justification other than "faith".
Indeed, to put it another way, you can't just assume I don't have a favourite nu ...[text shortened]... pens to be, say, 19438357249438 then your position, without good evidence, is indefensible.
Do you have the same faith in the evidence for your belief? 😏
22 Jan 12
Suzianne: "He doesn't want...", "He shows you...", "He can crush you...", etc - I always find it quite hilarious when people say what God wants or does as if they had a personal knowledge...
Also the God you describe/believe is quite an ugly thing, and if He were as you say he would strike (crush!) you down as a poor advocate that will alienate any possible converts!😉
22 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsYou know, RJHinds, that you sounds very much like Dasa, do you? He is expressing more or less with the same wordings. He calls Christianity as false teachings an lies, but who is nitty gritty...
Don't forget about false and true evidence. False evidence causes false
teachings in both religion and science. 😏
23 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead
Why? It seems somewhat unnecessary. Its those that lack faith that need proof.
And in my experience, people take those Bible stories as evidence, yet you are saying that that is not possible.
[b]But to show Himself blatantly to all men would eliminate the necessity of Faith. He doesn't want to be your God merely because He shows you that He can cru ...[text shortened]... ve. A choice where the reasons and impact are hidden from you is not free, it is arbitrary.[/b]
Why? It seems somewhat unnecessary. Its those that lack faith that need proof.Only the ones who have already made up their minds He doesn't exist need proof. And they'll get their proof, right before they pay the price for their rejection of God.
And in my experience, people take those Bible stories as evidence, yet you are saying that that is not possible.As you and others have said in this forum numerous times, Bible stories are not proof. I'll take your word for it. Actually, they prove nothing. They are only someone's account of what happened. You can go ahead and believe them, since they have no real reason to lie, or you can assume they are lying, for whatever reason you want to dream up.
He prefers people to imagine his existence (for no apparent reason). No wonder we have so many religions.He prefers people to know Him. This is why the Bible was written.
Yet when I ask Christians where that faith comes from, I am assure that it is imposed on them by God and that God picks and chooses who he gives it too.No. God does not "pick and choose" who comes to Him. Faith is given by the Holy Spirit, indwelling in a person once they have proven themselves worthy by accepting the Christ. In this way, yes, it is a gift from God. But everyone gets this gift who truly want it. The final amount of Faith a person has (yes, some have more, some have less) is a product of how that person has trusted God to grow their Faith in Him.
A better phrase would be 'truly random'. A free choice is one where you know full well the reasons for your decision and the impact it will have. A choice where the reasons and impact are hidden from you is not free, it is arbitrary.The reasons for and the impact of your decision are not "hidden" from you. Only a fool would make a decision where the reasons for it and the impact of it are unknown. Most Christians come to Christ after a period of question and answer, introspection, and research. I did, anyway. I had a "sponsor" who answered questions I had and who guided me on my initial path. I assure you I did not head into it at "random", or unknowingly. All humans have Free Will, for just this purpose.