Originally posted by twhitehead Before this thread proceeds I think something needs to be mentioned even though I suspect every participant has heard it before but some are choosing to have forgotten.
There are two possibilities, time is infinite, or time is finite in the 'past' direction.
If time is infinite, so is space-time as time is a property of space. If space-time is infinite ...[text shortened]... ' try and be clear about what you really mean as taken at face value the question is incoherent.
First of all, came out of nothing and came from nothing do not mean the same thing.
In regard to timeline or timelines, I think it's sufficient to say physical existence began (from nothing) or it didn't. If there was no true beginning point (an infinite number of past beginning points) then there is no reason to say there was no 'before' simply because the clock for this universe didn't start running until after the initial expansion began.
Originally posted by twhitehead Before this thread proceeds I think something needs to be mentioned even though I suspect every participant has heard it before but some are choosing to have forgotten.
There are two possibilities, time is infinite, or time is finite in the 'past' direction.
If time is infinite, so is space-time as time is a property of space. If space-time is infinite in ...[text shortened]... ing?' try and be clear about what you really mean as taken at face value the question is incoherent.
We have no frame of reference for grasping the concepts of
a) infinite eternity past which preexisted time/human history; b) infinite eternity future which will still exist when human history is concluded; or c) the infinite preexistence of God who always existed and whose existence encapsulates finite time. Yet He made it possible for depraved mankind to be reconciled unto Himself in time and for eternity by simply accepting a free gift which some reject at their peril..
Footnote: The adjectives "past" and "future" with reference to "eternity" represent language of accommodation: eternity simply is........
Originally posted by Suzianne I'm not sure that I understand either your question as written, or what you mean by it.
Either God caused the universe to exist or it came into existence from nothing.
If it all came from nothing then either nothing caused it to exist (not likely) or the 'nothing' was not a true (absolute) nothing... so it was nothing containing something or 'something' containing nothing.
Originally posted by lemon lime First of all, came out of nothing and came from nothing do not mean the same thing.
In regard to timeline or timelines, I think it's sufficient to say physical existence began (from nothing) or it didn't. If there was no true beginning point (an infinite number of past beginning points) then there is no reason to say there was no 'before' ...[text shortened]... the clock for this universe didn't start running until after the initial expansion began.
I am struggling to make head or tail of what you are saying. You appear to be saying (I could be wrong) that even if time is finite, it is OK to ask 'what was before' and OK to say 'there was nothing before'. I say, no, such claims are incoherent.
If that is not what you are claiming then please clarify.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby We have no frame of reference for grasping the concepts of
a) infinite eternity past which preexisted time/human history;
To even talk of 'preexisted time' is incoherent.
Footnote: The adjectives "past" and "future" with reference to "eternity" represent language of accommodation: eternity simply is........ It would greatly improve clarity if you simply avoided the adjectives "past" and "future" if they do not hold the standard meanings. They do not provide extra clarity but rather serve to create confusion.
Originally posted by twhitehead I am struggling to make head or tail of what you are saying. You appear to be saying (I could be wrong) that even if time is finite, it is OK to ask 'what was before' and OK to say 'there was nothing before'. I say, no, such claims are incoherent.
If that is not what you are claiming then please clarify.
Originally posted by KellyJay Do people honestly think everything could have come from nothing?
If so how?
For one thing, there was energy before the universe existed. Whether you want to call it god or the big bang, both would have to had manipulated energy to get the results we see today.
We know energy is just matter inverted, so if you slam enough energy together you will in fact create matter from nothing but energy. Matter comes out of energy like butter comes out of cream, cream being energy and butter being matter.
It matters little whether you think a god did it or if it was a godless concentration of energy in the big bang, the result is the same, lots of matter.
Originally posted by twhitehead If you don't understand my post, then please clarify yours. My post was a response to your post which is far from clear.
It's not clear to me what your point is. If you're saying time didn't begin until the BB event and therefore timelines before the BB are irrelevant that's fine, I'm not arguing with that. We've had this discussion before where you've said there is no 'before' the BB, so I assumed this is where you were going with it. If this wasn't your point, and you are talking about something else, then I don't know what you are trying to say in regard to the OP... I'm not sure what your comments have to do with our something from nothing vs eternal existence (in one form or another) discussion.
By the way, the purpose of my post to Suzianne was to try clarifying one of KellyJay's comments. I assumed this was evident to anyone reading along and taking context into consideration.
Originally posted by lemon lime It's not clear to me what your point is. If you're saying time didn't begin until the BB event and therefore timelines before the BB are irrelevant that's fine, I'm not arguing with that.
I have said that that is one possibility, yes. It appears then that we have no disagreement.
Originally posted by Agerg You've had the same rebuttals to this age old argument many times over. More importantly, do you honestly believe that everything could have come from fairy glitter and twinkle dust? When do you plan to grow up?
🙂
When the Lord throws fairy glitter and twinkle dust up into space he creates a universe with abundant conscious life.
How did science create the universe and conscious life.
Everything from nothing
20 Aug '15 08:00
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