Originally posted by josephwIt's a 'thought experiment' on the topic of evil. This is a debate and discussion forum for people, to a large degree, who disagree with each other and who want to discuss ideas. If you don't like 'thought experiments' and look upon them instead as "ploys" rather than opportunities to engage ideas you disagree with ~ to varying degrees of seriousness and playfulness ~ and to engage the people who have them, then perhaps this particular topic is simply not one for you.
Are you going to say that the OP isn't a ploy?
Vivify might be exaggerating a tad, but he does have a resonating point when he says "...any and EVERY hypothetical that could possibly could put Christianity in a negative light if answered, always seems to be attacked by Christians for five pages before any answer is attempted...if any answer is attempted at all" and, as far as I can make out, he's referring to posters like you and Suzianne.
Originally posted by FMFI'm actually not exaggerating; I'm speaking from experience. The same thing happened when I started a thread with a hypothetical. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt by trying to see it from their side, but it soon became clear that they simply resent any thought experiment that could possibly result in their questioning of their beliefs.
It's a 'thought experiment' on the topic of evil. This is a debate and discussion forum for people, to a large degree, who disagree with each other and who want to discuss ideas. If you don't like 'thought experiments' and look upon them instead as "ploys" rather than opportunities to engage ideas you disagree with ~ to varying degrees of seriousness and playful ...[text shortened]... ted at all" and, as far as I can make out, he's referring to posters like you and Suzianne.[/b]
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=If_it%27s_proven_there%27s_no_god&threadid=163707
Took 8 pages of arguing before a Christian finally attempted to answer the OP.
Originally posted by vivifyIndeed, it happens seemingly almost all the time. 😉
I'm actually not exaggerating; I'm speaking from experience. The same thing happened when I started a thread with a hypothetical. [...] Took 8 pages of arguing before a Christian finally attempted to answer the OP.
Originally posted by josephw" I don't need more information. I need clarity and truth."
No. I don't need more information. I need clarity and truth.
Quite frankly, I don't believe a mere mortal has the right to judge between good and evil. That's why we Christians turn to the Word of God to define what is good and evil.
Fundamentally, if one thinks that a perfect being is capable of making errors, that one knows not God. Simply put. If on ...[text shortened]... e LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
that means you need more information.
"Quite frankly, I don't believe a mere mortal has the right to judge between good and evil."
wtf does that mean? that you need to be told what is good or evil? stem cell research is nowhere in the bible, does it mean you are incapable of deciding if it's evil or not? are cars evil? modern medicine? smartphones?
"Fundamentally, if one thinks that a perfect being is capable of making errors, that one knows not God."
i am not going to repeat that MY god didn't make errors because he simply didn't do those horrible things (and at least in the case of the flood, we know for a fact he didn't).
i just want to address the horrible implications of your statement.
so no matter how many children God deliberately kills (hypothetically), you will never say "dude, that's quite evil"? if he demands one child as a daily sacrifice, you will never say "enough, i will not perform this evil act any longer, i don't care what hell you send me to" ?
"The law of the LORD is perfect"
yes, the bible says the bible is perfect. i am beyond pointing out how idiotic that is.
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziNo, what is idiotic is that you cannot see that God is without sin, PERIOD.
" I don't need more information. I need clarity and truth."
that means you need more information.
"Quite frankly, I don't believe a mere mortal has the right to judge between good and evil."
wtf does that mean? that you need to be told what is good or evil? stem cell research is nowhere in the bible, does it mean you are incapable of deciding if it's ...[text shortened]... erfect"
yes, the bible says the bible is perfect. i am beyond pointing out how idiotic that is.
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by Suziannemurdering children is without sin? sure, why not. you can defy sin as "item on a list God said humans must not to do" and then indeed God is without sin.
No, what is idiotic is that you cannot see that God is without sin, PERIOD.
murdering children is evil, and if god murders children he is evil. PERIOD.
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziYou must remember that Suzianne is for a woman's right to choose. 😏
murdering children is without sin? sure, why not. you can defy sin as "item on a list God said humans must not to do" and then indeed God is without sin.
murdering children is evil, and if god murders children he is evil. PERIOD.
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by FMFhttp://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
It's a 'thought experiment' on the topic of evil. This is a debate and discussion forum for people, to a large degree, who disagree with each other and who want to discuss ideas. If you don't like 'thought experiments' and look upon them instead as "ploys" rather than opportunities to engage ideas you disagree with ~ to varying degrees of seriousness and playful ...[text shortened]... ted at all" and, as far as I can make out, he's referring to posters like you and Suzianne.[/b]
It's a ploy. At best it's a non-constructive thought experiment. The OP clearly reflects the bias of its originator and is structured to pose a dilemma for those who's faith is in an infallible God.
Here's one for you and whoever to ponder over.
Matthew 21:42-45
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Is it evil that those for whom Jesus should fall upon be ground to powder for rejecting Him, while those who fall upon Jesus should be broken?
Originally posted by ZahlanziI'd rather be counted among the dumb than to be spiritually bereft of the knowledge of God.
dumb and dumber congratulating each other. it is so adorable.
Why can't you fathom the idea of an infallible God Zahlanzi? Is your intellect that shallow? Or is it you just can't stand the idea of losing autonomy? Try that one on as a "thought experiment"!
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephw"The OP clearly reflects the bias of its originator and is structured to pose a dilemma for those who's faith is in an infallible God."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
It's a ploy. At best it's a non-constructive thought experiment. The OP clearly reflects the bias of its originator and is structured to pose a dilemma for those who's faith is in an infallible God.
Here's one for you and whoever to ponder over.
Matthew 21:42-45
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye nev ...[text shortened]... ll upon be ground to powder for rejecting Him, while those who fall upon Jesus should be broken?
do you have faith in Odin, the infallible God? do you believe odin is real? if not, what is the problem? do you believe you stump me with your awesome debating skills by going on and on about anything but the subject?
we both know you CANNOT just come out and say it was evil because obviously this is word for word the elisha story, better known as "that time when OT god killed children with bears" story. and if you dare say it was evil, as any sane man would, you will burn in hell for all eternity.
fine, just for you:
forget the OP. odin obviously doesn't exist. there is no frank either.
two men from the human race are walking down the street. one child mocks man no1 for being bald. man no1 turns to man no2 and asks "what punishment does this child deserve?"
man no2 shoots the kid until he is dead. one kid died, not 42.
evil or not? will you finally answer now?
18 Jun 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziYou don't know me. If you did you wouldn't judge me so. In one way this debate can be said to be quite serious. A matter of life and death. Depending on who one is talking to.
"The OP clearly reflects the bias of its originator and is structured to pose a dilemma for those who's faith is in an infallible God."
do you have faith in Odin, the infallible God? do you believe odin is real? if not, what is the problem? do you believe you stump me with your awesome debating skills by going on and on about anything but the subject?
we ...[text shortened]... the kid until he is dead. one kid died, not 42.
evil or not? will you finally answer now?
In another way I'm ready to laugh at myself for the way I behave myself at times, and at some of the things I say. And in another way I cringe.
But rest assured Zahlanzi, I haven't near the skills required to even remotely consider myself able to "stump" anyone, nor do I want to.
But then there's this forum, where I come to take a break from my regular life to see if I can persuade someone to see the world from my perspective. That's all I'm really doing. This is an excursion from the routine for me. I am motivated to convince you where I believe you're in error, but not to gain an advantage, or even a thumbs up.
Try to understand my position about this contentious issue. When you ask whether or not an act of God can be considered by me as evil, my mind jumps in thought along these lines; if I were perfect and had omniscient understanding I could conceivably judge God, but since I'm not, and I know God is perfect and omniscient, I can't answer the question outright because I would then compromise my integrity.
You wouldn't want me to do that would you?
You are mistaken if you think I am in fear of God casting me into hell just because I said He was evil. God will never cast me into hell for anything I've done or will ever do that offends Him.
Murder is evil, but God can, if He so desired, melt the whole universe down and kill every living thing in it. Who would be left to judge God then Zahlanzi?
You may find that idea good food for a "thought experiment". I wonder if you will and what may come of it!
Sorry for giving you so much grief. I really hope to see you in eternity.
19 Jun 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziGod does not 'murder' children.
murdering children is without sin? sure, why not. you can defy sin as "item on a list God said humans must not to do" and then indeed God is without sin.
murdering children is evil, and if god murders children he is evil. PERIOD.
Murder is a sin, like genocide. Clearly, neither is the work of God.