Evil or Not? Episode 1

Originally posted by vivify
That's the problem; these scriptures weren't believed to be "clearly mythology" In Jesus' day, or by Jesus himself. The "scripture as mythology" movement only appeared in the wake of science discrediting the Bible. It's only recently that Christians started opting for "the Bible is only an allegory" or "it's not literal" arguments. The Scopes Monkey Trials are evidence of this.

Whenever it happened, is not really important, and by that I don't dispute your point re the Scopes trial.

In Germany it happened long before then, during the (for many infamous) "God is dead" theology movement. But what the opponents of that movement did not understand, is that these theologians did not actually say: "there is no God!", but rather, that "the God that you have a picture of in your mind, does not exist."

And I would say that the god that is espoused by the likes of sonship and Smugface, with his threat of eternal hellfire, also does not exist.

The fact of the matter is that many Christians, and by the looks of it, most here on RHP, still believe the Bible to be literally and word-for-word inspired, and that I have a problem with.

But I also readily admit that I am in the minority.

Originally posted by CalJust

And I would say that the god that is espoused by the likes of sonship and Smugface, with his threat of eternal hellfire, also does not exist.

You talk about "the threat of eternal hellfire".

There are laws in place in the natural universe. For example, if I warn you not to jump out of a window of a ten story building because you will fall and die, this is not a "threat" in your sense.

"I THREATEN you sir. If you discard the law of gravity and leap out of that window, you will fall to the pavement below and be crushed to death in the fall. Now your listen to me THREATEN you! Do not disregard my THREAT against you."

This is not a true representation of the warning. You may choose to ignore the law of gravity and leap out the window curtly responding - "Don't you THREATEN me. I don't respond to your threats sir. You don't scare me. And you really have no business threatening me."

But if you jump, something called the law of gravity will take over.
You are free to choose to ignore that law. But once you jump you are not free to negate the consequences of that choice.

The wrath of God us upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness.
God will not give up His hatred for sin.
There is forgiveness in abundance. But there is no forgiveness with a demonstration of the awfulness of sin to God.

As the law of gravity, the wrath of God upon sin abides.
As gravity is impartial so the judging wrath of God.

Maybe millions or billions of years passed where there was no demonstration to God's creatures of His hatred of sin. The originator of sinning may have assumed God was a softy and too nice to endure a challenge to His authority. No angel had ever seen this God's anger.

I am somewhat convinced that Satan thought of God his Creator as a pushover, a whimp who maybe did not know how to deal with revolt and rebellion.

They found out that for the rebels and inventors of sin He prepared eternal punishment, if they would not be reconciled to Him.

" ... Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)

The "eternal fire" of verse 41 is the "eternal punishment" of verse 46. And it doesn't matter if this is symbolism or that a word picture is being used to make point.

The point made is dreadful beyond comprehension. And whether it is literal or figurative the net effect is that ultimate goodness offended by ultimate transgression will receive ultimate punishment.

We shouldn't think about it too much.
We should think about how much the Son of God did to secure salvation from for us from what was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Anyway, going from the Bible's teaching, the concept of God "threatening" us to be extricated from Satan's rebellion is not how I read it. Divine disapproval of sin, revolt, rebellion against God will take place - either at Calvary upon the Son of God for us, or in the lake of fire for those who will not be reconciled to God.

Originally posted by CalJust
Whenever it happened, is not really important,

Yes, it is; the timing of when Christians started to invoke "the bible is just a metaphor" is evidence that this is just a made up strategy to use as an excuse to continue being Christians.

As mankind becomes more progressive, more intelligent and more technologically and scientifically advanced, the bible becomes more and more ridiculous. Knowing this, some Christians invented the "metaphor" defense to keep from appearing foolish for being Christians.

Originally posted by vivify
Yes, it is; the timing of when Christians started to invoke "the bible is just a metaphor" is evidence that this is just a made up strategy to use as an excuse to continue being Christians.

As mankind becomes more progressive, more intelligent and more technologically and scientifically advanced, the bible becomes more and more ridiculous. Knowing this, ...[text shortened]... Christians invented the "metaphor" defense to keep from appearing foolish for being Christians.

Why should there be any subterfuge or hanky panky involved?

These are ancient texts, written hundreds, sometimes a thousand years ago. Clearly, the world view of the original authors and readers was far different from what we know now - e.g. a geothentric universe, etc. of course,with time comes new insights, and I totally agree with you that the scientific revolution, or the so-called "Enlightenment", if you will, forced a change in the interpretation of ancient texts.

This is only a problem if you deem these ancient texts to be word-for-word dictated by God. And, I grant you, there are many right here who do so deem.

But if you take them as ancient texts (which certainly have a value, which is another subject) then a reinterpretation in the light of current knowledge is only natural, and neither malicious nor devious.

Originally posted by CalJust
Why should there be any subterfuge or hanky panky involved?

These are ancient texts, written hundreds, sometimes a thousand years ago. Clearly, the world view of the original authors and readers was far different from what we know now - e.g. a geothentric universe, etc. of course,with time comes new insights, and I totally agree with you that the scientif ...[text shortened]... rpretation in the light of current knowledge is only natural, and neither malicious nor devious.

We Christians are not saying that all scripture is written and translated word for word as being the literal words of God. We believe these men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write some things down for the benefit of others. They certainly did not record all truth, or everything that Jesus spoke to them for it was just too much as one of the apostles mentioned, but they also wrote false things said by evil men and Satan and his demons to teach all that followed.

Not all of it is easy to understand since Jesus often taught in parables and Peter refers to some of Paul's letters as hard to understand.

The following is a few verses of scripture that I hope will explain it better:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB)

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

(2 Peter 3:14-16 NASB)

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

(2 Peter 1:20-21 NASB)

Now these are the last words of David....
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue."

(2 Samuel 23:1-2 NASB)

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?"

They said to Him, "The son of David."

He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'? "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"

(Matthew 22:45 NASB)