Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm honest in calling what I believe about the beginning a matter of faith, you on
the other hand act as if what you believe is some how beyond faith and are closer
to factual statements than a belief system. I'm saying that as soon as you start
telling me what you believe about billions of years ago you've left the facts behind
and have crossed ove ...[text shortened]... ng that cannot be proven wrong, you may as well start off by saying
once upon a time!
Kelly[/b]

it is not the imagination of man if it can be proved mathematically and through experimentation.


the fact that some stars are millions of light years away is proven fact. the margin of error is insignificant when it comes to distances like those. even approximating roughly would still yield results that contradict a young earth.

Originally posted by sonhouse
What an arrogant position you Christians have. You think humans are so far up the evolutionary god scale as to warrant an entire universe brought about in such a way as to fool humans into thinking it is billions of years old when in your mind, a fact, that the universe is 6000 years old. What absolute arrogance. A real god would be laughing his asss off at ...[text shortened]... would come back with some biblical reference, thus proving your point, a rumor in your own mind.

I think it is more arrogant of people like you to think they know that the universe is billions of years old and that God did not create it like He said He did. Is this what you were expecting from a Christian like me?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You assume the light we see came from the star millions of years ago correct?
If there were not true, then your math no matter how fine would have not given
you any insight into how old the universe really is.
Kelly[/b]

You might as well forget about trying to reason with these numbnuts. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
You might as well forget about trying to reason with these numbnuts. 😏

Is THAT what you call it. Reason. Wow. I did not know that.


NOT.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think it is more arrogant of people like you to think they know that the universe is billions of years old and that God did not create it like He said He did. Is this what you were expecting from a Christian like me?

It is the height of arrogance for humans to A, think they are better than any other life on Earth and B, to think a god would be so stupid as to create a universe in such a way, with perhaps trillions of other planets with life on them, specifically in such a way as to make humans think the world is billions of years old when it is according to christianities' absurd claim that the whole Earth and by extension, the whole universe, was made just for them.

That is the biggest line of crock ever foisted on weak minded humans.

You have a twisted view of reality.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It is the height of arrogance for humans to A, think they are better than any other life on Earth and B, to think a god would be so stupid as to create a universe in such a way, with perhaps trillions of other planets with life on them, specifically in such a way as to make humans think the world is billions of years old when it is according to christianiti ...[text shortened]... iggest line of crock ever foisted on weak minded humans.

You have a twisted view of reality.

We Christians say God made everything for His own pleasure. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
We Christians say God made everything for His own pleasure. 😏

Amazing how you figure you are so advanced you know the mind of a god.

I guess not so surprising, a self fulfilling prophecy, since the whole thing was made up by men and no help needed from any kind of god.

Besides, how do you know it wasn't just an advanced alien bamboozling those ancient writers? WE could have convinced them back 2 or 3 thousand years ago WE were gods with our electronic/holographic/tesla coil tricks. A nice stealth helicopter landing people down with a thin invisible rope, say the copter was a thousand feet in the air at night, we could have convinced those primitives anything we wanted.

We could have had wings glued to our arse and then the rope whips us back into the air and those would be angels...

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet you are not being honest when you refuse to answer questions that might clarify your position. You are not being honest when you can't admit that there is no real difference between my beliefs about the past and your beliefs about the origins of fossils.
I am saying that my beliefs about the age of fossils and stars are as factual as your beliefs tha ...[text shortened]... d typing error, changed 'is real difference' to 'is no real difference' in paragraph 1.

Liar
I've pointed out to you that what I have is faith and I've told you, you do too.
We are done.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
Amazing how you figure you are so advanced you know the mind of a god.

I guess not so surprising, a self fulfilling prophecy, since the whole thing was made up by men and no help needed from any kind of god.

Besides, how do you know it wasn't just an advanced alien bamboozling those ancient writers? WE could have convinced them back 2 or 3 thousand y ...[text shortened]... ngs glued to our arse and then the rope whips us back into the air and those would be angels...

It is amazing to me that you would rather believe in space aliens than the true and living God that created the heavens and the Earth.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Liar
I've pointed out to you that what I have is faith and I've told you, you do too.
We are done.
Kelly

What exactly did I lie about?

I occasionally exaggerate and I often get other peoples opinions wrong when I try to reflect them back to them to see if I have got it right, but I do not intentionally lie.

I have agreed that we both have faith. What I object to is you saying that my faith is equivalent to believing in fairy tales, whilst refusing to admit the same about your own beliefs. I also object to you claiming that my beliefs are all made up stories. This is simply not true.
And lastly, near the very beginning of this thread you claimed to have good reasons for not accepting the scientific account of abiogenesis - yet you have totally failed to substantiate these claims and instead have totally reversed your position to the point of saying it would be impossible to disprove abiogenesis (or any other claim I make apparently). Yet you have not admitted that you were in error initially.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What exactly did I lie about?

I occasionally exaggerate and I often get other peoples opinions wrong when I try to reflect them back to them to see if I have got it right, but I do not intentionally lie.

I have agreed that we both have faith. What I object to is you saying that my faith is equivalent to believing in fairy tales, whilst refusing to a ...[text shortened]... any other claim I make apparently). Yet you have not admitted that you were in error initially.

Read the following link to answer your question:

http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp

Originally posted by sonhouse
What an arrogant position you Christians have. You think humans are so far up the evolutionary god scale as to warrant an entire universe brought about in such a way as to fool humans into thinking it is billions of years old when in your mind, a fact, that the universe is 6000 years old. What absolute arrogance. A real god would be laughing his asss off at ...[text shortened]... would come back with some biblical reference, thus proving your point, a rumor in your own mind.

Just tell me how everything in this universe came into being than I'll admit if you
know that you can by looking at this universe know how old it really is. If you
don't know how everything came into being than you've no idea if it all started
off with the ability to support life at its beginning, or that it evolved into being
able to. If you don't know how it got here there isn't anything you can look at and
tell me by looking at this, that, or the other thing you know how long its been here.

So I'm willing to listen to you tell us how we can get everything from nothing, this
should be good since I guess you have all the answers! I guess there isn't any
arrogance on your part if you can back it all up.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it is not the imagination of man if it can be proved mathematically and through experimentation.


the fact that some stars are millions of light years away is proven fact. the margin of error is insignificant when it comes to distances like those. even approximating roughly would still yield results that contradict a young earth.

Well that depends upon what your doing don't you think? I can go along with almost
anything that is being tested in the here and now where we can see the results in
the here and now. I do have an issue with your telling me your math proves that
something occured billions of years ago, or millions of years ago, since as I have
pointed out to more than a few people here....your assuming there was a billions
or years ago or a millions of years ago. Getting the math right only means that
your math is right not that what you think it means is true.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you don't know how it got here there isn't anything you can look at and
tell me by looking at this, that, or the other thing you know how long its been here.

It is not clear whether you are claiming we cannot know the exact age of the universe, or whether you are claiming we cannot know anything about the age of the universe, not even a minimum age. If you are claiming the latter, then you are wrong - and have admitted that it is not the case. You fully admit that there is sufficient evidence to reasonably believe that the universe is:
1. Older than last Thursday.
2. At least as old as the Second World War.

You therefore cannot use that argument when it comes to any claim that only claims a minimum age (such as my ancient stars argument).

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just tell me how everything in this universe came into being than I'll admit if you
know that you can by looking at this universe know how old it really is. If you
don't know how everything came into being than you've no idea if it all started
off with the ability to support life at its beginning, or that it evolved into being
able to. If you don't know ...[text shortened]... nswers! I guess there isn't any
arrogance on your part if you can back it all up.
Kelly

So rather than accepting anything science has to say about the age of the universe you would, no matter the evidence, cling to the arrogance basic to your belief system.

You tell me why a god would be so deceptive as to make it look like the universe was 14 billion years old and the solar system 4.

You look at a bundle of rice fronds and see crosses.

You don't see reality for the wonder that it is and what we can find out about it.

You have no problem with the method of science in finding cures for cancer or parkinsons disease or landing people on the moon, but when that exact same scientific method says the universe is 14 billion years old and stars could be even further apart than that and the universe is expanding, implying in the past stars and galaxies were closer together where it seems at some point in the past the universe was one tiny ball of energy, now all of a sudden the scientific method is bogus.

The scientific method works because it produces results and if the overwhelming evidence says stars are millions of light years or billions of light years away, reasoning people accept that and based on that make further discoveries like there being too much mass in our galaxy that we can't see because the inside of the galaxy is spinning at the same rate as the outside, like as if the whole milky way was on a giant plate instead of spinning like a gas.

Those kind of reasonings make us follow a line of evidence leading to certain understanding of things.

The same scientific method that leads to better cars or better computers or better telescopes all of a sudden in no good if it refutes anything the bible says.

Now, science is bogus. You really don't get it. Scientific method works because of the feedback inherent in the system.

It's not for nothing we have made such incredible strides in science in the last 200 years. It is PRECISELY because the scientific method works and all your poo pooing will not change that.

The only reason you can think you can poo poo science of life and the age of the universe is because at this point in time we freely admit we don't have all the answers but come back in a hundred years and I bet we will.

I think it only a matter of time before we take carbon, amino acids and such and make a life form, even if it is only a bacteria, that will happen eventually.

Till that time, have a ball with your blindness.