Originally posted by Grampy BobbyEven more interesting:
Interesting...
http://www.godvine.com/bible/psalms/53-1
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1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
You cannot win a debate by claiming that your own argument is illogical. The moment you abandon reason, there is no point talking as your words are meaningless.
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Do any of them not rely on the assumption that the belief is valid? ie if God doesn't exist and the Bible isn't the word of God, would your belief still be worthwhile?
I agree that if God does not exist then this is highest self delusion to believe the Bible.
I am much more persuaded by the evidence of God's reality than that Atheism is true.
I believe that the Christians is on the right track and the Atheist is on the wrong track (as far as the existence of God is concerned).
Atheism is useful to us in some regards. But in denying God, Christ, and the word of God ? Your philosophy is far less persuasive.
Anthony Flew, though not becomming a Christian perhaps, also decided after a distinguished career ( in man's eyes) of world renown academic atheist, the the evidence for a Creator finally convinced him otherwise.
Anthony Flew Honest Atheist reconsiders Athiesm
Bart Erhman I know seems to go the other way. But it is interesting how he bristles at being exploited by the New Atheists. He quickly distanced himself from the new atheists utilizing him to argue that Jesus never existed.
- In essence he said - "That's dumb. And I never believed THAT." [all paraphrase]
Professor Bart Erhman on the Infidel Guy show:
Bart Erhman verses Atheist the Infidel Guy on the historicity of Jesus
Originally posted by sonshipWhat, you're asking if I've got a better imaginary friend than you? Sorry, no, can't help you.Pretty much all of these statements are poppycock in one way or another.
Oh, that's what the scribes and Pharisees and religionists which cried out "Crucify, Crucify Him" also said.
What do you offer me that is superior to Jesus Christ ?
[quote]
Pick your favourite one or two and I'll take a swipe at 'em, but I'm not going thr ...[text shortened]... o shine.
Better than Jesus is what you have to offer the world which is __________ ??
How is it that you're able to accept all that scripture without your mind rebelling? Do you never look at other religions and wonder if they're right and you're wrong? Have you ever looked at the history of christianity and wondered why God and/or Jesus has allowed all of that evil to take place in his name? And how can you not look at the edifice of the catholic church - the most numerous christian sect - and not feel enraged by their hypocrisy? Tell you what, you 'true' christians get your act together and go and turn over the tables in the Vatican and perhaps you'll have some credibility.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatDon't you think the crucifixion of Christ was enough?
What, you're asking if I've got a better imaginary friend than you? Sorry, no, can't help you.
How is it that you're able to accept all that scripture without your mind rebelling? Do you never look at other religions and wonder if they're right and you're wrong? Have you ever looked at the history of christianity and wondered why God and/or Jesus ...[text shortened]... nd go and turn over the tables in the Vatican and perhaps you'll have some credibility.
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What, you're asking if I've got a better imaginary friend than you? Sorry, no, can't help you.
I said, I think, ANYTHING and did not specify it had to be a Person.
But I suspect that you cannot help me, or anyone else or even yourself.
Okay do you have some matter that you think can compete with Jesus?
What is it?
You see what you really need is a Person and the love of that Person.
That is what you really need more than anything else.
That is why I believe you thing or matter or affair or even knowledge cannot compete with the love of God in Christ Jesus.
But if you have something which you think can meet your need more than the love of Christ - what matter is that ?
How is it that you're able to accept all that scripture without your mind rebelling?
Who said that sometimes my mind doesn't rebel ??
I really do not have any more faith within my natural self than anyone else.
I know where to go to get some faith - the word of God.
Do you never look at other religions and wonder if they're right and you're wrong?
Yep. One I consider is Christianity. I ask "Maybe their right."
But anyway - Do you think one has to have a thorough knowledge of all other women before one falls in love ?
I rarely am here preaching that other beliefs are wrong. I let others who have different beliefs do their own thing on this Forum. I don't often argue down others saying their religion is wrong.
Now when something is said wrong about Jesus, then I may speak up a correction. But my outlook is that I do not have to prove other religions wrong. I barely have time to talk about all the unsearchable riches of Jesus Christ.
Besides, I think most of the world religions DO have at least some element of truth embodied in them. Otherwise they would not attrack some followers.
When Islam says "There is ONE GOD ..." up to that point that is certainly true.
So in that regard they are not wrong.
When Buddhism says that this life is a vanity and an illusion, well, there is an element of real truth in that. Without Christ it is vanity of vanities - all is vanity.
So the great world religions usually have some element of what is true in them.
But ultimately the truth is a living Person.
The truth is a living Person.
Have you ever looked at the history of christianity and wondered why God and/or Jesus has allowed all of that evil to take place in his name?
Did you ever notice that Jesus TOLD us that in God's name bad things would be done ?
Do you think Jesus left us unaware that man's sinful nature can lay hold of the most noble and holy in order to further selfish purposes.
Why on earth do you think we should be shocked at some poor contrary things done in His name ? Why do you think I should be surprised at that ?
Did you read the New Testament ?
Did you read the Old Testament for that matter?
Was there ever a long period of time when religious hypocrisy did not rear up its head ?
Did you notice that Christ was most hotly persecuted and opposed by the religious authorities ?
What does that have to do with the splendid examples of positive disciples through the centries ? What does that have to do with me following the Lord and following positive examples of disciples of Jesus?
I am not looking for those who would hurt my faith. Why should I hunt for them? I am keeping my eyes out for those whose examples strengthen my faith.
And how can you not look at the edifice of the catholic church - the most numerous christian sect - and not feel enraged by their hypocrisy? Tell you what, you 'true' christians get your act together and go and turn over the tables in the Vatican and perhaps you'll have some credibility.
Read my keybaord - "Judgement BEGINS at the house of God" .
Nobody is getting away with anything.
Do you think God has no way to discipline His children beside the binary matter of heaven or hell?
You must not have read it. You should try reading the New Testament carefully.
Please quote to ME this time what you see in Matthew 7:21,22. Come on. What do you see written there? Look it up. Dust off your bible and tell me what that passage SAYS.
Originally posted by sonshipOh for goodness' sake man, limit yourself to a couple of hundred words will you?What, you're asking if I've got a better imaginary friend than you? Sorry, no, can't help you.
I said, I think, ANYTHING and did not specify it had to be a Person.
But I suspect that you cannot help me, or anyone else or even yourself.
Okay do you have some [b]matter that you think can compete with Jesus?
What is it?
...[text shortened]... en there? Look it up. Dust off your bible and tell me what that passage SAYS.[/b]
By any rational measure, the teachings of buddha offer far more valuable lessons than those of Jesus.
I skimmed some of your post. You resort to scripture again - I know you think this supports your position but to my mind it doesn't, it completely undermines it. I will never understand how anybody of sound mind can accept that a genuine god/creator would use such a ridiculous and clearly flawed method of getting his message across to his subjects. You have chosen, for whatever 'reason', to accept the words of men as the words of god. Judging by the effects of the scripture you revere so, I would think it at least as likely, and probably more so, that if it represents anything more than simply the collected stories of the insane, mistaken, lying and/or self-seeking, that it is of satanic origin.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSounds as if you've decided to Accept by Faith Alone [absolute confidence in without having seen]
Even more interesting:
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
You cannot win a debate by claiming that your own argument is illogical. The moment you abandon reason, there is no point talking as your words are meaningless.
The Person and Grace Gift [Substitutionary Spiritual Death on your behalf] of The Risen Christ.
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Oh for goodness' sake man, limit yourself to a couple of hundred words will you?
Its hard. Its hard. Time is running out for some of you.
By any rational measure, the teachings of buddha offer far more valuable lessons than those of Jesus.
Well, I think your Buddhist conception of Nirvana is very individualistic. In comparison the conclusion of history in the word of God is a city bride consisting of billions probably of sons of God. They are all "built" up into a corporate expression of God mingled with man.
Buddhism has some profound thoughts. But it tends to end up in a very isolated and individualistic conclusion of life. Personally I think the New Jerusalem as a final destination of the saved is more grand and more practical.
And the foretaste of it in the normal church life is more real than when I practiced Zen.
I skimmed some of your post. You resort to scripture again - I know you think this supports your position but to my mind it doesn't, it completely undermines it.
Could you explain to me why you think this ? That will help me recall what I said too.
I will never understand how anybody of sound mind can accept that a genuine god/creator would use such a ridiculous and clearly flawed method of getting his message across to his subjects.
This way of sharing the good news of the Gospel has not done too badly for at least 20 centries.
It is like passing a candle flame from one person to another over a thousand miles. Don't worry about us in that regard.
The flame of faith is burning still all around the world.
You have chosen, for whatever 'reason', to accept the words of men as the words of god.
If there is good reason to think God was speaking through men, why not accept them.
Can you explain how the prophet Micah, five some centries before the birth of Jesus, could prophecy that the Messiah would be born in the town of Bethlehem ?
This is miraculous foreknowledge of the future by centries. Why should I not suspect that God is indeed speaking through His prophets?
Judging by the effects of the scripture you revere so, I would think it at least as likely, and probably more so, that if it represents anything more than simply the collected stories of the insane, mistaken, lying and/or self-seeking, that it is of satanic origin.
So you regard Jesus of Nazareth and His teaching as insane, mistaken, lying and self seeking ??
Well many of people who were no friend of the Christian faith would not even agree with this. H.G. Wells was a firm believer in evolution but had rather glowing words to say about Jesus.
Wells said that when Jesus opened His mouth He embraced the whole world. But you see insanity ?
I think the prophet Isaiah was right that woe to him who calls bitter sweet and sweet bitter and takes darkness for light and light for darkness.
I think the problem is in the warpedness of your own heart that you would call Jesus' teaching insane.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatNone of us are of sound mind, especially you. I believe you are on the Satanic side of this argument because it seems clear that you are trying to turn the truth of God into a lie.
Oh for goodness' sake man, limit yourself to a couple of hundred words will you?
By any rational measure, the teachings of buddha offer far more valuable lessons than those of Jesus.
I skimmed some of your post. You resort to scripture again - I know you think this supports your position but to my mind it doesn't, it completely undermines it. ...[text shortened]... ed stories of the insane, mistaken, lying and/or self-seeking, that it is of satanic origin.
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(Romans 1:25 NASB)
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Christ is anything but "self seeking".
Jesus Christ stands for something no other human being on earth has to the same degree - Absoluteness for the Will of His Father.
He cared nothing for Himself. He was absolute for the will of His Father to the uttermost. He wanted everything only for God His Father.
This is in reverse of man's biggest problem. What is fallen man's biggest problem. It is not even his sin. It is that he is simply not for God.
All of us sons of Adam - we are invariably for something OTHER than God Himself.
Jesus was absolute for the will of His Father unto the death on the cross, unto drinking to bitter cup of His Father's will that He should lay down His life for the sins of the world.
Originally posted by sonshipIt looks like there is no place for individualism in your faith.
Christ is anything but "self seeking".
Jesus Christ stands for something no other human being on earth has to the same degree - Absoluteness for the Will of His Father.
He cared nothing for Himself. He was absolute for the will of His Father to the uttermost. He wanted everything only for God His Father.
This is in reverse of man's biggest proble ...[text shortened]... bitter cup of His Father's will that He should lay down His life for the sins of the world.
Originally posted by OdBodYou go from one extreme to the other don't you ?
It looks like there is no place for individualism in your faith.
No, in God's plan there is the perfect balance of unity and diversity.
"Christ ... who loved me and gave Himself up for me" says Paul.
It is only the all the loved MEs are built up together into a corporate dwelling place of God.
Listen. Only a God/Man could die for each one of us because He loved each one of us. Only God who transcends time can so do that. And only a man can die. So this was indeed a God man the union of the limitless and the limited - the union of the divine and the human - the union of the infinite with the finite.
He loved ME and gave Himself up for me.
He loved YOU and gave up Himself for you.
More so He gives Himself TO you in salvation.
In eternity we who are saved should even recognize one another. It is only that all the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son of God.
The New Jerusalem is built up in its wall with twelve manner of precious stones. These twelve stones - precious gems signify both individuals transformed into Christ likeness and building up together.
I see no corporate aspect of Buddha's teaching. If I am mistaken it is totally individualistic and that to really the destruction of the individual consciousness.
But the members of the Body of Christ are members of one another, loved, needed, coordinated up into a living expression of God dwelling in a collective group.
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Originally posted by sonshipAaagghhhh, another wall of text. Just pick one point at a time and then we'll discuss that ok?Oh for goodness' sake man, limit yourself to a couple of hundred words will you?
Its hard. Its hard. Time is running out for some of you.
By any rational measure, the teachings of buddha offer far more valuable lessons than those of Jesus.
Well, I think your Buddhist conception of Nirvana is very individualist oblem is in the warpedness of your own heart that you would call Jesus' teaching insane.
Can you explain how the prophet Micah, five some centries before the birth of Jesus, could prophecy that the Messiah would be born in the town of Bethlehem ?
Yes I can. Micah's 'prophecy' is a very poor fit for Jesus. Anybody who's ever looked into cold-reading or fortune telling would dismiss it immediately.