18 Nov 17
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Originally posted by @sonshipPianoman is a professional classical pianist so he knows what he is talking about. Bach's music came from his incredible mind and he brought to the world the well tempered scale, not invented by him but after he incorporated it into tunings for harpsichord and cello and violin and such, made music able to be played in all keys so he could shift keys and transpose and such without the musicians having to retune. Before that, they were pretty much stuck in say the key of D and if you tried to play something in A flat, it sounded terrible. The well tempered tuning was a compromise that sounded, if not perfect, close enough that it would take a perfect pitch person to notice the difference and far superior to the old style of tuning which was key specific.Please do not insult my intelligence by spouting opiniated tosh to try explain the awesome beauty and wonder of music.
The [b]Culture forum is probably more a place where talk of art would not gender some comment on Spirituality and God relevance on the subject matter.
But you invite some spiritually relevant comment wit ...[text shortened]... ucated or intelligent to humor me, nevermind.
I can take it up with someone else more my speed.[/b]
THAT was the magic that allowed the genius of Bach to shine. God did not give that to mankind, it was given by a man who knew it sounded terrible for an instrument tuned in D trying to play in F # for instance. It is hard to pin down exactly who came up with it, there have been many versions but one organist and musical theorist Andreas Werckmeister, 1645-1706 first used the term as just one example of which there are a good number of theorists converging on the modern tempered scales. No god was needed at all. It was the application of human intelligence in the science of music.
You deliberately denigrate the intelligence of humanity in your quest to prove god did it all including human inventions and the incredible art created by mankind of all kinds, sculpture, dance, music, painting, mosaic windows and such.
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Originally posted by @sonhouseHe has my respect.
Pianoman is a professional classical pianist so he knows what he is talking about. Bach's music came from his incredible mind and he brought to the world the well tempered scale, not invented by him but after he incorporated it into tunings for harpsichord and cello and violin and such, made music able to be played in all keys so he could shift keys and tr ...[text shortened]... art created by mankind of all kinds, sculpture, dance, music, painting, mosaic windows and such.
If he didn't have my respect I would not have commented to him.
I compose music. So I know a little about the process of composing.
If you're interested, here is my latest performed composition for trio of oboe, bassoon, and piano.
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18 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonhouse
Pianoman is a professional classical pianist so he knows what he is talking about. Bach's music came from his incredible mind and he brought to the world the well tempered scale, not invented by him but after he incorporated it into tunings for harpsichord and cello and violin and such, made music able to be played in all keys so he could shift keys and tr ...[text shortened]... art created by mankind of all kinds, sculpture, dance, music, painting, mosaic windows and such.
THAT was the magic that allowed the genius of Bach to shine. God did not give that to mankind, it was given by a man who knew it sounded terrible for an instrument tuned in D trying to play in F # for instance. It is hard to pin down exactly who came up with it, there have been many versions but one organist and musical theorist Andreas Werckmeister, 1645-1706 first used the term as just one example of which there are a good number of theorists converging on the modern tempered scales. No god was needed at all. It was the application of human intelligence in the science of music.
You deliberately denigrate the intelligence of humanity in your quest to prove god did it all including human inventions and the incredible art created by mankind of all kinds, sculpture, dance, music, painting, mosaic windows and such.
I think it honors the standing of human beings to see the both the gifts of their abilities and their discovering the intelligence put into nature by God.
Whereas you say this is denigrating to mankind I see it just the opposite way.
It is peculiar to me that you would find this nobility having its source in God as somehow anti-humanity. As if an eternal uncreated Creator is - somehow - "the enemy".
That's strange to me.
18 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonshipAs you are well aware, sonhouse, you cannot compare beauty. As a classically trained pianist I have, of course, cut my teeth on the 48 of JSB. Love them for their intricate perfectly expression of the character of each major and minor key, composed as they were using French, Italian and Germanic idioms. I am not a fan of John Cage, however, (I'm more of a Philip Glass admirer) though beauty, being in the eye of the beholder, can be witnessed anywhere.Please do not insult my intelligence by spouting opiniated tosh to try explain the awesome beauty and wonder of music.
The [b]Culture forum is probably more a place where talk of art would not gender some comment on Spirituality and God relevance on the subject matter.
But you invite some spiritually relevant comment wit ...[text shortened]... ucated or intelligent to humor me, nevermind.
I can take it up with someone else more my speed.[/b]
You previously mentioned Debussy and Scriabin, I think. As a pianist they challenge the performer in subtle and perverse ways, but they always tell magical stories which for me is wonderful.
You will have gathered I am not a Christian, and I do not attribute any of the wonderful awe and majesty and spiritual intensity of ANY music to a deity. That would be belittling the music.
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Originally posted by @pianoman1I did not attribute any music directly to a deity.
As you are well aware, sonhouse, you cannot compare beauty. As a classically trained pianist I have, of course, cut my teeth on the 48 of JSB. Love them for their intricate perfectly expression of the character of each major and minor key, composed as they were using French, Italian and Germanic idioms. I am not a fan of John Cage, however, (I'm more of a ...[text shortened]... and majesty and spiritual intensity of ANY music to a deity. That would be belittling the music.
Of course Haydn's 104th symphony is Haydn's 104th symphony.
Any one of Scarlotti's hundreds of piano works are Scarlotti's and not a deity's.
As a theist I acknowedge an uncreated Creator as the basis for all subsequent created creators with no such sense of denigrating humanity. The cosmic buck, I think, stops with God. That to me is friendly and not hostile.
And such things as the laws of logic, the design of the human ear, the aspects of mathematics which give rise to harmonic relationships, to an uncreated Creator of eternal and divine attributes.
I do so without the feeling of robbing humanity of any dignity. And I think for at least some from the artistic world (such AS JS Bach himself) I am in good company.
Your opinion is interesting to me. Maybe we'll talk latter.
One comment: Antonin Dvorak once left from a long conversation with his friend Johanna Brahms. He walked at first in silence with another friend. Then reportedly blurted out about Brahms - "Such a great mind and he believes in nothing!"
As you know with many of these talented people, there was a search. They changed sometimes. Wagner, for example, I think tended to be contemplative of God as he grew nearer towards the realization of his mortality.
Just saying these men and woman often shifted and changed in their viewpoints.
19 Nov 17
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Sonhouse, we are both musicians and spiritually alive people. You have my respect as such. Incidentally, I enjoyed your Eulogy and Tango (the pianist suggested you might be the bassoonist?)
What JSB did, in my view, was to tame the great forces of diatonicism and chromaticism into a unified well-tempered perfection that somehow makes a deity irrelevant. Albeit he was inspired with his Lutheran faith by the gospels, but I would suggest that the music came from within his extraordinary mind. And, yes, all composers have this search (Bruckner may have travelled further along this path than Mahler). I am interested in where you place the inspiration? When you compose, does the music flow through you from "a higher force"? Where did Mozart's effortless music come from?
19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @pianoman1Well, I am Christian, and I play piano as well. I've never been "spiritually moved" by "religious" classical music, beyond the beauty of the genius at work. Even though I personally prefer to play jazz and blues, I regularly play classical pieces to hone my skill, and while I fully appreciate the genius involved in the great masters' works (I do prefer Mozart and Tchaikovsky over the three B's, though), but none of it has really moved me in a religious sense. I'm sure it is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
J.S.Bach's spiritual music is astonishing for the artless intensity of emotion. It appeals as much to the athiest as to the Lutheran believer. The Mass in B minor, the St. Matthew and St John Passions are the defining culmination of Baroque contrapuntal composition allied with an aching religious devotion. The greatest and, in my view, only gift that Chri ...[text shortened]... s, Wagner's Parsifal etc. all take the listener on an extraordinary spiritually intense journey.
19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @suzianneHorses for courses, I guess. "Erbarme dich" from St. Matthew Passion is for me one of the most spiritually intense moments in all music. I am not a Christian, but I am so moved by the Bach's setting of Jesus's last week. The world would be a poorer place without all the beautiful music inspired by Christ.
Well, I am Christian, and I play piano as well. I've never been "spiritually moved" by "religious" classical music, beyond the beauty of the genius at work. Even though I personally prefer to play jazz and blues, I regularly play classical pieces to hone my skill, and while I fully appreciate the genius involved in the great masters' works (I do prefer M ...[text shortened]... of it has really moved me in a religious sense. I'm sure it is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
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19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @suzianneCharles Eves's Fourth Symphony closes with a haunting like cacophony of slightly askew harmonies and a wordless choral chanting. If the person listens carefully and is familiar with Christian hymns she can detect that underneath, concealed is the melody of "Nearer My God to Thee".
Well, I am Christian, and I play piano as well. I've never been "spiritually moved" by "religious" classical music, beyond the beauty of the genius at work. Even though I personally prefer to play jazz and blues, I regularly play classical pieces to hone my skill, and while I fully appreciate the genius involved in the great masters' works (I do prefer M ...[text shortened]... of it has really moved me in a religious sense. I'm sure it is a "your mileage may vary" thing.
I recommend the whole work be heard though modern music, to get the impact of the beautiful closing coda.
I also admire the soul searching works of Gustav Mahler, for example his Symphony #2, the Resurrection. I am not sure why he felt above using the New Testament as text for the choral.
Can you play Jazz in the style of Thelonious Monk?
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Originally posted by @pianoman1
As you are well aware, sonhouse, you cannot compare beauty. As a classically trained pianist I have, of course, cut my teeth on the 48 of JSB. Love them for their intricate perfectly expression of the character of each major and minor key, composed as they were using French, Italian and Germanic idioms. I am not a fan of John Cage, however, (I'm more of a ...[text shortened]... and majesty and spiritual intensity of ANY music to a deity. That would be belittling the music.
You will have gathered I am not a Christian, and I do not attribute any of the wonderful awe and majesty and spiritual intensity of ANY music to a deity. That would be belittling the music.
What is your opinion about this, its a genuine question.
If you take your piano and play a Bach fugue in a pasture of cows, well, they just won't gather around and be enthralled by the music. They will just go on chomping on the grass. They don't hear the beauty.
Why is that? Do you have an opinion about WHY the beauty cannot be appreciated by the bovines yet we humans can hear it ?
I am not quite sure how I myself would answer yet. But it would probably have something to do, in my case, with the uniqueness of the human creation "in the of God" (Gen.1:26,27).
I am opened to hear what your explanation would be.
19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @sonshipInteresting. There have been some studies to show that actually animals DO appreciate classical music. Hens laid approximately one extra egg per week when played Mozart, and cows were able to be milked much easier when played classical music. Who knows what goes on inside a cow's head, but I'm sure they appreciate beauty, not in the same way as us, as much as we do!You will have gathered I am not a Christian, and I do not attribute any of the wonderful awe and majesty and spiritual intensity of ANY music to a deity. That would be belittling the music.
What is your opinion about this, its a genuine question.
If you take your piano and play a Bach fugue in a pasture of cows, well, they just won't ...[text shortened]... n [b]"in the of God" (Gen.1:26,27).
I am opened to hear what your explanation would be.[/b]
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19 Nov 17
Originally posted by @pianoman1Thanks. I'll not bother you more on that question. But another I have.
Interesting. There have been some studies to show that actually animals DO appreciate classical music. Hens laid approximately one extra egg per week when played Mozart, and cows were able to be milked much easier when played classical music. Who knows what goes on inside a cow's head, but I'm sure they appreciate beauty, not in the same way as us, as much as we do!
If you notice many, many albums of classical music are often presented with some peaceful or panoramic scene in nature - mountains, fields, nice forests, beautiful sunsets or sunrises, etc.
This of course is not exclusively so by any means.
But I notice that the hint is something like "This Music is Beautiful just like This here natural scene".
You don't see any correlation there with the beauty of the Creator's creation with humanity's creations of art ?
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Originally posted by @pianoman1Give me a few weeks an I will try to track down the piece and hear it. As far back as I can remember it Bach's St. Matthew was spoken of highly.
Horses for courses, I guess. "Erbarme dich" from St. Matthew Passion is for me one of the most spiritually intense moments in all music. I am not a Christian, but I am so moved by the Bach's setting of Jesus's last week. The world would be a poorer place without all the beautiful music inspired by Christ.
One teacher I had in music school said he couldn't figure out even why Bach wrote the St. Matthew work? But it was great to him.