1. Felicific Forest
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    20 Jul '06 22:192 edits
    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm


    The Book of Wisdom

    Chapter 2

    1
    they who said among themselves, thinking not aright: "Brief and troublous is our lifetime; neither is there any remedy for man's dying, nor is anyone known to have come back from the nether world.
    2
    For haphazard were we born, and hereafter we shall be as though we had not been; Because the breath in our nostrils is a smoke and reason is a spark at the beating of our hearts,
    3
    And when this is quenched, our body will be ashes and our spirit will be poured abroad like unresisting air.
    4
    Even our name will be forgotten in time, and no one will recall our deeds. So our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud, and will be dispersed like a mist pursued by the sun's rays and overpowered by its heat.
    5
    For our lifetime is the passing of a shadow; and our dying cannot be deferred because it is fixed with a seal; and no one returns.
    6
    Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are real, and use the freshness of creation avidly.
    7
    Let us have our fill of costly wine and perfumes, and let no springtime blossom pass us by;
    8
    let us crown ourselves with rosebuds ere they wither.
    9
    1 Let no meadow be free from our wantonness; everywhere let us leave tokens of our rejoicing, for this our portion is, and this our lot.
    10
    Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time.
    11
    But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless.
    12
    2 3 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
    13
    He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
    14
    To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,
    15
    Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways.
    16
    He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
    17
    Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.
    18
    For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
    19
    With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.
    20
    Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
    21
    These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,
    22
    And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls' reward.
    23
    For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him.
    24
    But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    It seems that the thoughts on which the hedonistic Evolution Theory advocates assume this theory is based are very old indeed.
  2. Standard memberNemesio
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    20 Jul '06 22:32
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm
    I'm sorry to report that this book is not considered to be authorative
    by most of the 'Christian' readers of this site.

    Nemesio
  3. Felicific Forest
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    20 Jul '06 22:50
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    I'm sorry to report that this book is not considered to be authorative
    by most of the 'Christian' readers of this site.

    Nemesio
    Does it matter ?
  4. Standard memberNemesio
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    20 Jul '06 23:031 edit
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Does it matter ?
    Not to me, but to them it does. I've always maintained that the
    canon of the Bible is most properly reflected in the Roman Catholic
    practice.

    However, you certainly aren't going to be 'inspiring' anyone who
    doesn't recognize this book as authoritative.

    It wasn't meant as a criticism of your post, just an observation.

    Nemesio
  5. Standard memberscottishinnz
    Kichigai!
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    20 Jul '06 23:03
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm


    The Book of Wisdom

    Chapter 2

    1
    they who said among themselves, thinking not aright: "Brief and troublous is our lifetime; neither is there any remedy for man's dying, nor is anyone known to have come back from the nether world.
    2
    For haphazard were we born, and hereafter we shall be as though ...[text shortened]... the hedonistic Evolution Theory advocates assume this theory is based are very old indeed.
    So what? This may be true of some, but not others.
  6. Felicific Forest
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    20 Jul '06 23:35
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Not to me, but to them it does. I've always maintained that the
    canon of the Bible is most properly reflected in the Roman Catholic
    practice.

    However, you certainly aren't going to be 'inspiring' anyone who
    doesn't recognize this book as authoritative.

    It wasn't meant as a criticism of your post, just an observation.

    Nemesio
    I see. Thanks.
  7. Felicific Forest
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    20 Jul '06 23:351 edit
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    So what? This may be true of some, but not others.
    What exactly is true of some, but not of others ?
  8. Melbourne, Australia
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    21 Jul '06 00:24
    Pray tell could you explain how a scientific theory - any scientific theory - is 'hedonistic'?

    The suggestion made by your annoyingly large cut and paste is that if you don't have God, then you've got no morals.
    My response to that is f@#k off and come back when you've got something worth reading ...
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    21 Jul '06 00:32
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    What exactly is true of some, but not of others ?
    Some people who are atheists may be particularly hedonistic, others are not. The same could be said of Christians, of course.
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Jul '06 07:45
    Cheers, Omar Khayyam.
  11. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Jul '06 08:10
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    23
    For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him.
    24
    But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
    Your quote projects the thoughts of evil-doers to rebut it with this final thought. Well, prophets have always been subjected to mockery...And...?
  12. Joined
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    21 Jul '06 09:49
    Just to show you how little this piece compares to the actual mindset of an atheist who accepts the ToE:

    1
    they who said among themselves, thinking not aright: "Brief and troublous is our lifetime; neither is there any remedy for man's dying, nor is anyone known to have come back from the nether world.


    There need be no remedy for death, why should there? A remedy suggests there is a desire to be cured of something. Do you believe atheists wish to live forever? Also, there is no netherworld in the atheist view so there is nothing to come back from.

    2
    For haphazard were we born, and hereafter we shall be as though we had not been; Because the breath in our nostrils is a smoke and reason is a spark at the beating of our hearts,


    I have no problem with the premises here.

    3
    And when this is quenched, our body will be ashes and our spirit will be poured abroad like unresisting air.


    A reference to the spirit in an unbeliever's thoughts suggests not atheism, but a-christianity. It also lends weight to the suspiscion I hold that this piece is not a representation of anything more than a Christian's misguided view of an atheist, failing to understand the core and then building up a speculative account of things upon that misunderstanding. And now you are suggesting it highlights a view which you misunderstand as well.


    4
    Even our name will be forgotten in time, and no one will recall our deeds. So our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud, and will be dispersed like a mist pursued by the sun's rays and overpowered by its heat.


    Why would nobody recall their deeds? Are atheists less memorable for some reason?

    5
    For our lifetime is the passing of a shadow; and our dying cannot be deferred because it is fixed with a seal; and no one returns.


    Fair enough

    6
    Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are real, and use the freshness of creation avidly.


    Well, assuming they intend creation to mean the natural process rather than the supernatural one; yes! Why would anyone act otherwise? If I did not believe in god and yet rued my existence, I should be a poor specimen of life.

    7
    Let us have our fill of costly wine and perfumes, and let no springtime blossom pass us by;


    Experience is indeed the most important part of life.

    8
    let us crown ourselves with rosebuds ere they wither.


    Umm, yeah, sure, why not?

    9
    1 Let no meadow be free from our wantonness; everywhere let us leave tokens of our rejoicing, for this our portion is, and this our lot.


    Sounds okay so far, what next....

    10
    Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time.


    Ahh, here's where I start to get irritated. There is no reason to suggest that hedonism means cruelty or a lack of morals. If this is the overall intention of this cut and paste job, all I can say is find some better material. We've been over the subject so many times I don't understand why you still bother, you're fully aware of the atheist view, so why continue to question it? You may not agree with it, but it is perfectly supportable that morals do not depend on the supernatural and indeed in my view, laughable that the suggestion might be they do.

    11
    But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless.


    Like the church? Strength has no place in anything, this is clearly more propoganda.

    12
    2 3 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.


    More propoganda; if he was just, he wouldn't be obnoxious. Atheists do not dislike christians as a matter of course, nor do we find the need to 'beset' them for being disagreeable.

    13
    He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.


    No doubt.

    14
    To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,


    I'm sure this appeals to the martyr complex most Christians seem to carry, but they're really not that awful...

    15
    Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways.


    Sure.

    16
    He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.


    ok

    17
    Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.


    And then was created the spiituality forum and the search continued...

    18
    For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.


    I do wonder what stays god's hand from his children's defence sometimes. However, this still suggests that atheists have a tendency to beat on Christians, which is plainly ridiculous.

    19
    With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.


    Do you consider this forum a trial by fire ivanhoe? So you believe that interacting with the heathens is a torture you must endure? I wonder how viscious the circle of your martyr complex is.

    20
    Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."


    Atheists do not put people to death. Romans, muslims, governments etc. might do/have done, atheists do not.

    21
    These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,


    Were they really their thoughts? I doubt it, I think they were the thoughts of the author.

    The rest is of little import.

    It seems that the thoughts on which the hedonistic Evolution Theory advocates assume this theory is based are very old indeed.

    Justify this statement ivanhoe. If you are going to misrepresent a view in an attempt to prove that a set of beliefs is wrong, you are a charlatan.
  13. Felicific Forest
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    21 Jul '06 13:542 edits
    Originally posted by amannion
    Pray tell could you explain how a scientific theory - any scientific theory - is 'hedonistic'?

    My response to that is f@#k off and come back when you've got something worth reading ...
    "Pray tell could you explain how a scientific theory - any scientific theory - is 'hedonistic'?"

    The advocates are hedonistic.

    It is a general statement, therefore please regard it as such.
  14. Felicific Forest
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    21 Jul '06 13:561 edit
    Originally posted by amannion
    Pray tell could you explain how a scientific theory - any scientific theory - is 'hedonistic'?

    The suggestion made by your annoyingly large cut and paste is that if you don't have God, then you've got no morals.
    My response to that is f@#k off and come back when you've got something worth reading ...
    "The suggestion made ..... is that if you don't have God, then you've got no morals."

    I don't think that is the case. Maybe it is just the other way around.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Jul '06 13:56
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    "Pray tell could you explain how a scientific theory - any scientific theory - is 'hedonistic'?"

    The advocates are hedonistic.
    Are you distinguishing between hedonistic and other advocates of evolutionary theory? If so--why?
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