For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by sonship
I think RJHinds simply took the lazy way out of a discussion on some Scriptural matter. I think when he could not deal too well with my points, he just seized upon a quotation and started to throw the "cult" word around.

This seemed to me to be a short cut. Just throw "cult" out there and you really don't have to deal with the Scriptures do you ? ...[text shortened]... ion.

Most of all I think whatever is conservative and traditional, he assumes must be truer.

We seem to agree on many things in scripture, however, I did not know everything about scripture that you believe. I did not know you were a Witness Lee cult member until you started defending his heretical views on the Christ and the Trinity.

It is also clear that Jesus did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture because He said that AFTER THE TRIBULATION He would return to raise the sleeping dead and catch up (rapture) those believers remaining alive at His coming.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Firstfruits and Harvest - Revelation chapter 14.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]Firstfruits and Harvest - Revelation chapter 14. [/b]

This in no way contradicts the gathering together of Christ's elect by the angels and the rapture of those remaing alive as occurring AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Firstfruits are the first agricultural products to mature and ripen. Throughout the Bible, God uses the analogy of the harvest—and, particularly on Pentecost, firstfruits—to illustrate aspects of His plan of salvation. Israel observed this day in the late spring AFTER the barley and wheat harvests.

A special offering of the first ripe grain during the Days of Unleavened Bread, called the wave-sheaf offering, marked the beginning of these harvests, which continued during the next 50 days and led up to Pentecost (Leviticus:23:11). This spring harvest was the firstfruits of the yearly agricultural cycle.

One of the first harvest lessons of the New Testament is that Jesus Christ "is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians:15:20). The wave-sheaf offer-ing represented Jesus Christ, who was the "firstborn over all creation" and the "firstborn from the dead" (Colossians:1:15, 18). He presented Himself to God the Father on the Sunday after His resurrection, the same day during the Days of Unleavened Bread on which the first sheaf of grain of the spring harvest was to be waved before God.

Romans:8:29 speaks of Jesus Christ as "the firstborn of many brethren." Yet the New Testament Church is also considered to be firstfruits. In speaking of the Father, James said, "Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James:1:18).

Paul also referred to the members of the Church as those "who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (Romans:8:23). He alluded to several first-century Christians as the firstfruits of God's calling (Romans:16:5; 1 Corinthians:16:15).

The apostle Paul understood this: "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep . . . For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming" (1 Corinthians:15:20, 1 Corinthians:15:22-23). Anyone who is now called and chosen by God is included with Christ as God's firstfruits.

Pentecost serves as an annual reminder that our Creator still works miracles, granting His Spirit to those called to be the firstfruits of His spiritual harvest, empowering them to carry out His work in this world.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/gods-holy-day-plan-promise-hope-all-mankind/feast-pentecost-firstfruits-gods-harvest/

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

(Matthew 13:24-30, 36-39 New International Version NIV)

The 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 are not considered firstfuits because they were raptured, but because they were sealed for a purpose to serve God (Revelation 7) during the Judgment and wrath of God and the Lamb beginning with the opening of the Seventh Seal (Revalation 8). These were sealed on earth.

But in heaven are a great multitude which no man can count (Revelation 7:9). These are those that have fallen asleep (died) and come out of the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:14) and precede those that remain alive AFTER THE TRIBULAION.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

[quote[ For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [quote]
(Matthew 24:21-23, 29-31 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds

Firstfruits are the first agricultural products to mature and ripen.

And the typology in Revelation 14 is that whatever happened to the Harvest in verses 14-15 happened, TIMEWISE to the Firstfruits (1-20) FIRST.

In "ripeness" in maturity and growth, in following the Lamb the Son of God, it happened to those 144,000 FIRST timewise to those in (vs. 14-16)

Throughout the Bible, God uses the analogy of the harvest—and, particularly on Pentecost, firstfruits—to illustrate aspects of His plan of salvation. Israel observed this day in the late spring AFTER the barley and wheat harvests.

However else firstfruits may be used, in Revelation 14 it stands for WHATEVER happened to the Harvest only BEFOREHAND.

The 144,000 Firstfruits were taken to heaven.
The 144,000 Firstfruits followed the Lamb wherever He would go.
The 144,000 followed Him right up to heaven - like Enoch.
The 144,000 were purchased from among men and redeemed from the earth.

They were raptured TIMEWISE before the Harvest otherwise there would be no mention of Firstfruits AND Harvest.

It is not necessary to prove that everywhere else in the Bible Firstfruits means raptured.

A special offering of the first ripe grain during the Days of Unleavened Bread, called the wave-sheaf offering, marked the beginning of these harvests, which continued during the next 50 days and led up to Pentecost (Leviticus:23:11). This spring harvest was the firstfruits of the yearly agricultural cycle.

And the symbolism in Revelation refers to those who follow the Lamb to Heaven timewise BEFORE the majority are taken by Jesus to "the air" .

Pointing to "firstfruits" somewhere ELSE in the Bible in which rapture is NOT being depicted does not make the significance disappear in Revelation chapter 14.

One of the first harvest lessons of the New Testament is that Jesus Christ "is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians:15:20).

Waving hands about First Corinthians 15:20 does not make the 144,000 Firstfruits who followed the Lamb right up into Heaven go away.

Whatever happened to those in Revelation 14:14-16 happened in nature BEFOREHAND to those in Revelation 14:1-5.

That the former is limited to a specific number - 144,000 declares that it is a minority.

All throughout the Bible it was usually a minority of God's people who were to His satisfaction in a TIMELY manner. So the logic is transparently clear. Before the Antichrist is raised up to do his things [b/(Rev. 14:9-12)[/b] the Firstfruits are SO very pleasing to God for they were following the Lamb in life right up into His presence in Heaven.

Before the warning of the worship of God the Creator instead of Antichrist (vs6,7) and before the judgment of religious Babylon (v.8) a minority of the total number of God's "crop" on earth matured early.

However else firstfruits may be used in some other passages, in Revelation 14 it is a symbol of maturity, pleasure to God and the Lamb, and rapture BEFORE the great tribulation of a limited minority of Christians.

The wave-sheaf offer-ing represented Jesus Christ, who was the "firstborn over all creation" and the "firstborn from the dead" (Colossians:1:15, 18). He presented Himself to God the Father on the Sunday after His resurrection, the same day during the Days of Unleavened Bread on which the first sheaf of grain of the spring harvest was to be waved ...

Since in God's salvation Jesus Christ is WROUGHT INTO man, combined with man, infused with man, and imparted INTO His people it is entirely appropriate that the symbol of Firstfruits be used for those who have attained this goal EARLY.

Christ is in fact IN the 144,000 Firstfruits. That is precisely why they are SO PLEASING to God - they have LIVED that way indeed.

Romans:8:29 speaks of Jesus Christ as "the firstborn of many brethren."

So it is quite logical that there would be Firstfruits who have matured INTO this brotherhood.

Firstfruits in Revelation 14 has nothing to do with INSTEAD of JESUS. It has to do with JESUS imparted and dispensed into many people.

Jesus GROWS in those into whom He has been imparted.
So the symbols at the end of the age of Firstfruits and Harvest are quite consistent with the revelation of Christ growing in the saved.

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused to grow" (1 Cor. 3:6)

Since God is causing Christ to GROW in the church it is logical that there would be a culmination - a Harvest and even an early Firstfruits.

"FOr we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm] God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9)

On God's FARM, on God's cultivated land Revelation 14 is giving us a symbol of those matured before the great tribulation and raptured to heaven AND latter those matured and raptured to the air.

Yet the New Testament Church is also considered to be firstfruits. In speaking of the Father, James said, "Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James:1:18).

However firstfruits may be utilized elsewhere in the Bible, in Revelation 14 it means what happens to those in verses 1-5 which happens BEFORE the essentially same matter happens to those in verses 14-16.

No amount of appealing to somewhat varied employments of the symbol in James nullifies its clear implications in Revelation 14..

Firstfruits followed by great tribulation culminating in Harvest.

"Immediately after the tribulation in those days" does not say there will be no Firstfruits. It just speaks of something that will happen immediately after the tribulation of those days.

It does not argue "Immediatley BEFORE the tribulation of those days ..." there will be NO Firstfruits. That is what RJHinds is attempting to force it to say.

Paul also referred to the members of the Church as those "who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (Romans:8:23). He alluded to several first-century Christians as the firstfruits of God's calling (Romans:16:5; 1 Corinthians:16:15).

However else firstfruits may be utilized in speaking elsewhere, in Revelation 14 it means those limited amount of saved who are raptured BEFORE the majority.

Revelation 14 is unique in this regard because BOTH Firstfruits AND Harvest are used. And the obvious meaning is being lifted up above and away from the planet.

In the first case to the third heavens.
In the second case to the air.

In the first case before the Great Tribulation.
In the second case at its conclusion.

The usage of BOTH words - Firstfruits and Harvest most logically mean one event preceded the other yet both were similar in nature.

The apostle Paul understood this: "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep . . . For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming" (1 Corinthians:15:20, 1 Corinthians:15:22-23). Anyone who is now called and chosen by God is included with Christ as God's firstfruits.

However firstfruits may be used in another portion of the New Testament in Revelation 14 it means TIMING of rapture.

Firstfruits in Revelation 14 is not INSTEAD of Jesus Christ. It is about Jesus Christ DISPENSED into many people.

It is about all that Christ is being imparted into and growing to maturity in some of God's people EARLY.

In nature Firstfruits is mateched by the concepts taught in Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36. It should not be a surprise at all that this symbol appear in matters pertaining to the end of the church age.

Originally posted by sonship

Firstfruits are the first agricultural products to mature and ripen.

And the typology in [b]Revelation 14 is that whatever happened to the Harvest in verses 14-15 happened, TIMEWISE to the Firstfruits (1-20) FIRST.

In "ripeness" in maturity and growth, in following the Lamb the Son of God, it happen ...[text shortened]... be a surprise at all that this symbol appear in matters pertaining to the end of the church age.[/b]

You must have started your reply before I added my explanation.

This in no way contradicts the gathering together of Christ's elect by the angels and the rapture of those remaing alive as occurring AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

The 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 are not considered firstfuits because they were raptured, but because they were sealed for a purpose to serve God (Revelation 7) during the Judgment and wrath of God and the Lamb beginning with the opening of the Seventh Seal (Revalation 8). These were sealed on earth.

But in heaven are a great multitude which no man can count (Revelation 7:9). These are those that have fallen asleep (died) and come out of the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:14) and precede those that remain alive AFTER THE TRIBULAION.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Matthew 24:21-23, 29-31 NKJV)[/b]

This is what the parable of the wheat and tares or weeds teaches us too.

Did you notice this?
Israel observed this day in the late spring AFTER the barley and wheat harvests.

The logic I believe is on the side of selective pre-great tribulation rapture.

What I have seen for the last few posts from RJHinds has been mostly "Argument by Confident Assertion".

IE. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... etc. etc. etc." simply tells the truth concerning things to happen immediately after the tribulation of those days.

How ANY of those things described by Christ in negate His exhortation in Luke 21:36; is not explained.

How ANY of those things described by Christ negate His promise to some overcoming believers in Rev. 3:10 is not explained.

How ANY of those things described by Christ negates the two visions of Firstfruits raptured to heaven before the GT and Harvest raptured to the air at its conclusion, is not explained.

How ANY of those things described by Christ negates a corporate man-child is raptured to God and to His throne before the last 1,260 days of this age before the millennium is not well explained.

We simply have "Argument by Confident Assertion" that "there is no pre-triublation rapture."

And it bears repeating, being raptured before the things happen pertaining to the Great Tribulation is the response of obedience to Christ's command. To have been left when He exhorted us to be prepared to escape is a indication not of God's perfect will but rather of what He allowed to happen because of the hardness of people's hearts.

"But be watchful at every time beseeching, that you may prevail to escape all these things which are about to take place, and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

The Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5 are a minority of saints who will escape these things and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.

The Man-child in Revelation 12:5-12 is another group, a minority, who will escape these things and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.

How about the Harvest which represents those living and left remaining, raptured at the end of the great tribulation ?

Of course God is pleased that they have finally ripened. But He is more pleased with the TIMELY and early ripening of those who were raptured BEFORE the great tribulation.

Pre-tribulation rapture is God's initial will.
Post-tribulation rapture is what our faithful God will permit being faithful to Himself.

Sure we should comfort one another with these words of ultimate rapture of ALL the saints.

"Then we who are living, who are left ramaining, shall be caught up at the same time together with them in clouds into a meeting if the Lord in the air, and so we shall be always together with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words." ( 1 Thess. 4:17,18)

Of course the church should comfort all within her with these words. But we should also comfort one another with the words of a " be watchful at every time beseeching, that you MAY ... prevail to escape all these things which are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

The word "escape" there is the same Greek word indicating a PHYSICAL removal from danger as indicated in passages such as:

1.) Escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3)

2.) Certain ones of the world not escaping the calamities of the end times (1 Thess. 5:3).

3.) "How shall we ESCAPE if we neglect so great a salvation" (Heb.2:3)

4.) In past tense it is the word Paul used to described being physically let down a wall by a rope to get away from danger of persecutors ( 2 Cor. 11:33)

Strong Exhaustive Concordance Entry # 1628.

Therefore the Lord's command is concerning physical escape from the time of the great tribulation. It is less likely Him speaking of passing THROUGH those things to stand before Him. Rather being removed, escaping the things to be raptured and stand before Him in Heaven before He descends to the earth.

This will not happen to the WHOLE church. It will happen to SOME of the church. We will find out too WHOM it will happen only at the time. No one has a guarantee of it.

Originally posted by sonship
The logic I believe is on the side of selective pre-great tribulation rapture.

What I have seen for the last few posts from RJHinds has been mostly "Argument by Confident Assertion".

IE. [b] "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... etc. etc. etc." simply tells the truth concerning things to happen immediately after the tribulation ...[text shortened]... church. We will find out too WHOM it will happen only at the time. No one has a guarantee of it.[/b]

The ESCAPE refers to the judgment and wrath of God, not to the great tribultion.

God is one that makes confident assertions rather than explaining things in detail. We are supposed to have enough common sense to understand instead of listening to cult leaders.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The ESCAPE refers to the judgment and wrath of God, not to the great tribultion.

The "escape" is from "all these things which are about to happen". That means "all these things" of the great tribulation.

God is one that makes confident assertions rather than explaining things in detail. We are supposed to have enough common sense to understand instead of listening to cult leaders.

This is why we pay close attention to the details of (Rev. 3:10).

And there are details about the rapture of the man-child followed by one thousand two hundred and sixty days of persecution (Rev. 12:6) of the rest of the woman's seed (Rev. 12:17).

"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (v.17).

The argument by confident assertion I mentioned referred to assertions you made that this is not so, just on some kind of bare authority of your own because you say so absent effective interpretive reasoning.

But here is more effective reasoning that Luke 21:36 speaks of pre-tribulation rapture as a reward for overcoming.

1. Standing before the Son of Man in the Heavens

The rest of the overcoming believers, who will be living at the Lord's coming back, will be raptured to stand before the Son of Man in the heavens. The Lord Jesus said, “Be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man” (v. 36). Stand in this verse has the meaning of being put in a certain place. This refers to our being raptured to the presence of Christ. Stand before the Son of Man corresponds to the standing of the overcomers in Revelation 14:1. At the time of the rapture of the living overcomers, Christ will not yet have left heaven to come down to the air. Therefore, the minority of those who are taken, the living overcomers, will stand before the Savior on Mount Zion in the heavens.

2. Escaping All the Things of
the Great Tribulation and Being Kept
out of the Time of the Great Tribulation

The Lord promises that if we are watchful and beseeching at every time, we will “prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen” (Luke 21:36). “All these things which are about to happen” are the things of the great tribulation. Escape signifies being taken, raptured, before the great tribulation. If we are able to escape or are counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation, we will be raptured to, placed in, His presence.

In Revelation 3:10 the Lord said, “Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.” Trial in this verse undoubtedly denotes the great tribulation that is about to come on the whole inhabited earth (Matt. 24:21). The Lord promised the overcoming believers in Philadelphia that He will keep them out of the hour of trial (not just out of the trial but out of the hour of trial) because they have kept the word of His endurance, the word of His suffering. This implies that those who have not kept the word of His endurance will be left in the great tribulation. Therefore, to be kept out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, is to be kept out of the great tribulation.

From Truth Lessons by Witness Lee [my emphasis]

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2BC4CBD582EF

The 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 are not considered firstfuits because they were raptured, but because they were sealed for a purpose to serve God (Revelation 7) during the Judgment and wrath of God and the Lamb beginning with the opening of the Seventh Seal (Revalation 8). These were sealed on earth.

The only definite connection between the Israelites mentioned in chapter 7 and the Firstfruits mentioned in chapter 14 is the spiritually significant number 144,000.

There is really no other matter which argues that the same group is being talked about.

Revelation 14 could have said " [THE] 144,000" (14:1) meaning that the previous 144,000 of chapter 7 are what the vision is about. But it does not say "[THE] 144,000" until 14:3. Here it mentions "THE 144,000" because it is obvious that the ones in verse 1 are meant.

Compare: "And I saw and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads." (v.1)

"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living cretures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and fourty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth." (v.3)

It is understandable that some readers would assume that the sameness of the number 144,000 must signal that it is the same sealed Israelites in Rev. 7. But it could be the spiritual number applied again to another group of people.

And this, I think, is the more probable interpretation.
Those reasons will be discussed AGAIN latter.

And the reason for their being firstfruits is because what happens to the Harvest in verses 14-16 has happened to the Firstfruits at an EARIER time. This meaning should be obvious as both keywords firstfruits and harvest are used in the same chapter.

Furthermore, it is significant that it only shows the Firstfruits standing in heaven rather than going UP to heaven in transport. The emphasis is that they are LIVING daily in that heavenly state. Their rapture was not really a shock. They simply were physically transported to where their inward being always chose to dwell.

IE. "If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (Col. 3:1-3)

This SHOULD be the normal daily state of Christians. It may not be the typical state. But it is the NORMAL state to which all us believers in Jesus should seek.

Originally posted by sonship

The ESCAPE refers to the judgment and wrath of God, not to the great tribultion.

The [b]"escape" is from "all these things which are about to happen". That means "all these things" of the great tribulation.

[quote]
God is one that makes confident assertions rather than explaining things in detail. We are supposed to ...[text shortened]... itness Lee [my emphasis]

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2BC4CBD582EF[/b]

But the persecution of believers occurs BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS.

“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all because of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives.

(Luke 21:12-18 NASB)

Some will endure through the great tribulation of the wrath of Satan and remain alive to be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air at his coming at the great day of the Lord's wrath.

I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

(Revelation 7:14 NASB)

When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

(Revelation 8:1-2 NASB)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NASB)

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

(1 Corinthians 15:23 NASB)

The 144,000 First Fruits are from the 12 tribes of Israel who are sealed (not raptured) before His coming. (Revelaton 7)

Originally posted by sonship

The 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-5 are not considered firstfuits because they were raptured, but because they were sealed for a purpose to serve God (Revelation 7) during the Judgment and wrath of God and the Lamb beginning with the opening of the Seventh Seal (Revalation 8). These were sealed on earth.

The only definite connection betwe ...[text shortened]... be the typical state. But it is the NORMAL state to which all us believers in Jesus should seek.

No rapture takes place until Christ's coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The seal of the living God is placed on the foreheads of the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel before the coming of the Lord (Revelation 7). This appears to me to be some type of protection, so they will not be hurt by the wrath of God and the Lamb. However, that does not rule out their rapture at His coming.

I believe these 144,000 or Revelation 14 that are now in heaven are the same 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel of Revelation 7 that were on earth before the Lord's coming. Notice that it says they were purchased from the earth (14:3) and they have His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads (14:1) which probably is the same as the seal of the living God that the angel put on the foreheads of the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3.

Don't forget that the Tribulation is taking place in Revelation 6 before they see the sign of the coming of the great day of the wrath of God and the Lamb (Revelation 6:17) and many have already been martyred in the tribulation (Revelation 6:9). Revelation 7:14 indicates the great tribulation is over.

Another view which I encourage:

Continued From above Truth Lessons by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2BC4CBD582EF

SUMMARY

The rapture of the believers is a great matter and is emphasized strongly in the New Testament. There are two main aspects of the rapture: the rapture of the overcomers and the rapture of the majority of the believers. Leviticus 23:10 presents a type related to the two aspects of the believers' rapture; it is a type of crops ripening in the field. Some crops ripen earlier and others ripen later. Those that ripen first are the firstfruits, and those that ripen later are the harvest. The firstfruits, the overcoming believers, will be brought directly to God's temple in the heavens. Later the crop, the majority of the believers, will ripen, be harvested, and taken to the air.

The overcomers through all the generations who have died, as the man-child among the believers, will be resurrected and caught up before the last three and half years, the period of the great tribulation. The man-child should also include the martyred saints who cry out to the Lord in the fifth seal. These believers loved not their soul-life even unto death. After their resurrection, they will be raptured to God and to His throne. In addition, among God's people there will be a group of living overcomers who have been purchased from among men and who followed the Lamb absolutely. They are the one hundred and forty-four thousand firstfruits who will be raptured before the majority of the believers to stand with the Lamb, Christ, on Mount Zion for the fresh enjoyment of God and Christ. There is a difference between the man-child and the firstfruits. The man-child is for fighting and for defeating Satan. Hence, the man-child deals with the enemy. The firstfruits are not for fighting but for the satisfaction of God and of the Lamb. The enemy, the devil, must be cast down from heaven by the man-child, who will execute God's judgment over him. But there is another need in the heavens—God and Christ must have the firstfruits in order to obtain fresh enjoyment and satisfaction. The rapture of the overcomers will also include the rest of the overcoming believers who will be living at the Lord's coming back. These believers are signified by the one of two men working in the field, by one of the two women grinding at the mill, and by one of the two on one bed. Those who are mature in life will be raptured before the great tribulation; those who are immature will be left in the great tribulation. The rest, the minority, of the overcoming believers, who will be living at the Lord's coming back, will be raptured to stand before the Son of Man in the heavens. The Lord promises that if we are watchful and beseeching at every time, we will prevail to escape all the things of the great tribulation.

Originally posted by sonship
Another view which I encourage:

Continued From above [b]Truth Lessons by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2BC4CBD582EF

SUMMARY

The rapture of the believers is a great matter and is emphasized strongly in the New Testament. There are two main aspects of the rapture: the rapture of the overcom ...[text shortened]... ching at every time, we will prevail to escape all the things of the great tribulation.

[/b]

I believe Witness Lee, maybe because he is Chinese, is misunderstanding scripture. I would encourage you not to trust his teachings to be entirely accurate.

It is not clear if the one of two men working in the field, and the one of the two women grinding at the mill, and the one of the two on one bed that are taken means they are raptured or just taken in death.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No rapture takes place until Christ's coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The seal of the living God is placed on the foreheads of the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel before the coming of the Lord (Revelation 7). This appears to me to be some type of protection, so they will not be hurt by the wrath of God and the Lamb. However, that does not rule out their r ...[text shortened]... d in the tribulation (Revelation 6:9). Revelation 7:14 indicates the great tribulation is over.

Before commenting on this, I submit some things about godly teachers of different opinions about the rapture.

The point is to demonstrate that honest and spiritual Bible teachers have been a part of each of the three major schools of thought on rapture. The speaker here is Watchman Nee. None of the schools can ignore the others entirely.

Concerning the matter of the rapture, there are many different opinions among the believers: (1) Some say that all the saved ones will be raptured before the great tribulation. (2) Some say that all the saved ones must pass through the great tribulation. (3) Some say that part of the saved ones will be raptured before the tribulation and part will be caught up after the tribulation. With these three schools, each regards the others as heretical and cuts off fellowship with the others. This is a mistake.

In all these schools there are well-known persons. In the first school are Darby, Kelly (whose mind Spurgeon once said could encompass the universe), Torrey (who later changed to the post-tribulation school), Moody (who later changed to the second school), Brooks, James Gray, Gaebelein, Weiss, Scofield, etc.

The second school includes Müller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A. J. Gordon (of Boston), Simpson, Erdman, Moorehead, Henry Frost (of Canada), Chamberlain (a co-worker of Taylor), James Wright, Newton, etc.

In the third school are Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon extolled the light of his writing as surpassing the previous century's, and said that in his writing there is gold), Pember, Panton (the "king of prophecy" ), etc.

Although none of the three schools can ignore the others, only one school is right. Let us have an impartial attitude in studying this. Let us be the prosecutor, and not the lawyer.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe Witness Lee, maybe because he is Chinese, is misunderstanding scripture. I would encourage you not to trust his teachings to be entirely accurate.

It is not clear if the one of two men working in the field, and the one of the two women grinding at the mill, and the one of the two on one bed that are taken means they are raptured or just taken in death.

I believe Witness Lee, maybe because he is Chinese, is misunderstanding scripture. I would encourage you not to trust his teachings to be entirely accurate.

This would be a great mistake. That is to assume a Chinese person could not have enlightenment from God Almighty as well as any western educated person.

This would be a mistake. The Body of Christ is not a Western product. God can cause the fresh blessing to circulate from the West towards to East. But He can JUST AS WELL cause the blessing to flow from the East toward the West.

The lesson here may be "Be careful what you pray for. You might get it."

Missionaries to China fasted, pleaded, petitioned and prayed to God for years for Him to get some people for Himself. Now when God answers that prayer it is foolish of us to think we CANNOT learn something from them.

This is cultural pride assuming that because we sent missionaries to Far East they must learn everything from the West. I would caution you that many times in the Bible God used mightily the unexpected persons.

This is a test to us in the West as the Jordan river was a test to the proud Namaan the Syrian. God, through the prophet told him that if he wanted to be healed, to go wash in the Jordan river 7 times. He wanted to go away from Elisha the prophet in a huff. But he humbled himself and received healing.

So RJHinds, I would caution you against any pride that does not believe Christ, the Head of the church, could not greatly enlighten a Chinaman. The Lord knows that the Chinese had to humble themselves to hear the Gospel. And we in the West need to take our turn to realize God could make the life of the Body of Christ come our direction from the Far East as well.

Humility all around will save us.

It is not clear if the one of two men working in the field, and the one of the two women grinding at the mill, and the one of the two on one bed that are taken means they are raptured or just taken in death.

I never once considered that those passages were speaking of dying.
This never crossed my mind.

The picture I have always gotten is of pairs of people taken in the midst of normal and even mundane duties of typical human life. The passages reminded me of the experience of Enoch.

Now some argue that the pairs are pairs doing activities at the last trumpet.

While I admit that coming as a thief is mentioned many times concerning last things, including final things at a time of calamities, I think the sense of the Matthew and Luke passages is a unexpected rather than expected rapture.