Originally posted by sonshipI understand that there are different ways that we can look at the timing of the rapture. Some seem to consider some of the wrath of God as part of the Great Tribulation. But I believe that if we consider all of scripture, the common sense interpretation is that the Great Tribulation must occur before the resurrection and the rapture of those remaining alive.I believe Witness Lee, maybe because he is Chinese, is misunderstanding scripture. I would encourage you not to trust his teachings to be entirely accurate.
This would be a great mistake. That is to assume a Chinese person could not have enlightenment from God Almighty as well as any western educated person.
This would be a mistake. ...[text shortened]... I think the sense of the Matthew and Luke passages is a unexpected rather than expected rapture.
I believe the sense of comparing the coming of the Lord with the Flood of Noah's day is that Noah and his family were watching and were not caught off guard, but the unbelieving of that day were continuing their normal activities when they were suddenly surprised by the rain and the flood that took them all away to their watery grave and Noah and his family were left alive on the earth in the safety of the ark.
Witness Lee may not understand or he could be a cult leader. We should consider both possibilities.
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Originally posted by RJHindsJust as the Days of Noah Were
[b]I believe the sense of comparing the coming of the Lord with the Flood of Noah's day is that Noah and his family were watching and were not caught off guard, but the unbelieving of that day were continuing their normal activities when they were suddenly surprised by the rain and the flood that took them all away to their watery grave and Noah and his family were left alive on the earth in the safety of the ark.
http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2001/02/01_02_wr.pdf
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Originally posted by sonshipThere will be no pre-trib rapture. There is no special escape unless you die before the tribulation.
The entire church will not be raptured pre-tribulation.
Some will.
We can practice by being mini-raptured away from temptations by turning to the Lord Jesus and whisked away in the Spirit from ourselves.
I believe that rapture physical will be easy for those who practice to let the indwelling Lord Jesus rise up within them and snatch them away fro ...[text shortened]... d endure through enjoying His indwelling presence. He is the mighty One. He is the powerful one.
But I can tell you this. 'The Great Day of the Lord' will come before the tribulation. The Great Day of the Lord is the same thing as the Sixth Seal.
The other Five have already been broken, and no one paid attention.
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Originally posted by Pudgenik
There will be no pre-trib rapture. There is no special escape unless you die before the tribulation.
But I can tell you this. 'The Great Day of the Lord' will come before the tribulation. The Great Day of the Lord is the same thing as the Sixth Seal.
The other Five have already been broken, and no one paid attention.
There will be no pre-trib rapture. There is no special escape unless you die before the tribulation.
I think you are really mistaken.
The great tribulation is CAUSED by the results of a rapture.
That seems to be missed by those arguing that the entire body of Christians on the earth must at the same time be raptured at the end of the great tribulation.
Once again - the great tribulation will be CAUSED to happen because some early overcoming believers are raptured to God and to His throne. This is seen in Revelation 12.
Second of all, as the whole body of Christians need not be raptured at the same time, it is understandable that some who fulfill the requirement of watching and vigilance will, according to the Lord's word and exhortation, be found worthy to escape the things which are coming to pass in the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
So your error is probably assuming that any rapture must of necessity include ALL the believers at one time.
But I can tell you this. 'The Great Day of the Lord' will come before the tribulation. The Great Day of the Lord is the same thing as the Sixth Seal.
I have been procrastinating to deal with this matter of the Day of the Lord. There is no short posting way I can explain this adequately.
I think the best way to be concise about it is to just say the the day of the Lord is in contrast to "man's day." In "man's day" man is judging and displaying man's dealings.
In contrast "the day of the Lord" is a period in which God displays rather His divine judgment. And this is not to be insisted to be one 24 hour day.
Here is a passage that brings this out somewhat First Corinthians 4:3 -
Douay-Rheims Bible
But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self.
Darby Bible Translation
But for me it is the very smallest matter that I be examined of you or of man's day. Nor do I even examine myself.
Do you see the phrase there - "man's day" ? That is the day of human judgment - faulty, imperfect, imprecise, sometimes off and incorrect.
Other translations "help" the English reader to understand that "man's day" means the day of man's judgment or man's authority - a human court of human opinion.
IE.
New Living Translation
As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
It is of little importance to me that I should be evaluated by you or by any human court. In fact, I don't even evaluate myself.
NET Bible
So for me, it is a minor matter that I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But to me this is a slight matter that I am judged by you or by any man. I do not even judge myself.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
It means very little to me that you or any human court should cross-examine me. I don't even ask myself questions.
Jubilee Bible 2000
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by man's judgment; I do not even judge my own self.
King James 2000 Bible
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not my own self.
American King James Version
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yes, I judge not my own self.
American Standard Version
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
You get the point I think.
The Recovery Version (my favorite today) reads -
"But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you or by man's day; rather I do not een examine myself." (1 Cor. 4:3 RcV)
And there is a footnote saying -
Man's day of judgment is the present age, in which man judges (this judgment refers to man's examination). It is in contrast to the Lord's day (3:13), which is the coming age, the kingdom age, in which the Lord will judge and in which the judgment will be the Lord's judgment."
So you can see that we should think of the Lord's day as not a moment or a solar day but as much as an entire AGE.
The Lord's day in this regard is the entire millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.
Now the concept of the Lord's day [ie. God's day of judging] (not meaning Sunday in this context - the day of Christ's resurrection) is used in 1 Corinthians 3:13 -
"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is ..." (1 Cor. 3:13)
So you can see that included is the day of God or the Lord's day is also the judgment seat of Christ upon all the Christians. This Paul was more concerned with than "man's day" in which they erroneously judged his motives as an apostle of Christ.
Of course the Lord's day involve also judgment of nations and of angels. I can write more on this. This is good for this post.
I think you should therefore include the judgment of God during the great tribulation as a part of the Day of God. The entire millennium as well is a part of the day of God's judgment rather than man's.
Your comments ?
there is no pre-rapture as the rapture is a misunderstanding of
1Thessalonians 4:17.
In 50 C.E the Christian Congregation was relatively new and they wee distressed about those who had already died. Paul was writing them to comfort them with the hope of the resurrection during the parousia of the Christ.
the rapture is not in the Bible because it wasn't misinterpreted that way until the 18th Century by Puritan preachers Increase and Cotton Mather. It was further popularized by John Darby, (a Catholic, I think).
See "5 myths about the Rapture" by Carl E. Olsen
(Morley Publishing Group 2003)
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Originally posted by roigamQuick response -
there is no pre-rapture as the rapture is a misunderstanding of
1Thessalonians 4:17.
In 50 C.E the Christian Congregation was relatively new and they wee distressed about those who had already died. Paul was writing them to comfort them with the hope of the resurrection during the parousia of the Christ.
the rapture is not in the Bible because it wasn't ...[text shortened]... lic, I think).
See "5 myths about the Rapture" by Carl E. Olsen
(Morley Publishing Group 2003)
John Nelson Darby Catholic ? ? ?
Spend some time to study the Brethren and John Nelson Darby, a prominent Brethren teacher.
He was an Anglican clergyman who gave up his position to join a movement of Christians who left all denominations to call each other "Brothers". All reference to Father this, Reverend that were abandoned in the "Brethren" move of these Christians. They wanted to come back, as Christians should, to the universal priesthood of each Christian.
Thier official positions were abandoned. The talent and skill of ministry was not. They just all decided that they all should simply be "Brothers".
First Thessalonians 4:17 as a passage to demonstrate PRE-tribulation rapture? That's new to me. This passage is usually a strong passage used to prove POST-tribulation rapture. And well is should be.
There may have been some PRE-tribulation rapture teachers of the entire church which dealt with 1 Thess. 4:17 in that way.
It is common to many students that the church in Thessalonika was one of many young Christians who were concerned about matters of Christ's second coming. That did include concerns for loved ones of them who has died.
I don't know what pointing out that fact has any effect of the teaching of a catching up of those who are alive and left remaining in the end times.
There is only ONE myth about rapture that I would draw posters attention to. And that is the myth that all the Christian body has to be raptured in one event.
The clearest proof of the unreliability of this assumption is the Firstfruits and the Harvest mentioned in Revelation chapter 14. Should be obvious that the Holy Spirit is showing us that the ripeness and reaping of the crop of believers on earth is in at least TWO groups and TWO different times - a time for the gathering of Firstfruits followed by the great tribulation and final gathering of the Harvest.
Originally posted by sonshipI am glad to see that you have come around to the Post-Tribulation Rapture view.
Quick response -
John Nelson Darby Catholic ? ? ?
Spend some time to study the Brethren and John Nelson Darby, a prominent Brethren teacher.
He was an Anglican clergyman who gave up his position to join a movement of Christians who left all denominations to call each other "Brothers". All reference to Father this, Reverend that were abandoned ...[text shortened]... [b]Firstfruits followed by the great tribulation and final gathering of the Harvest.[/b]
http://endtimepilgrim.org/posttribrap.htm
Originally posted by sonshipThank you for expanding my knowledge on John Darby.
Quick response -
John Nelson Darby Catholic ? ? ?
Spend some time to study the Brethren and John Nelson Darby, a prominent Brethren teacher.
He was an Anglican clergyman who gave up his position to join a movement of Christians who left all denominations to call each other "Brothers". All reference to Father this, Reverend that were abandoned ...[text shortened]... [b]Firstfruits followed by the great tribulation and final gathering of the Harvest.[/b]
As for the rapture, Paul was speaking of the resurrection of the chosen ones or anointed ones during the Great Tribulation.
They are the ones left on earth who have not yet died. They will die and "be changed in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52
They must die as they are baptized into Jesus' death as Romans 6:3 states.
Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 states clearly, "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom,.." .
1 Corinthians 15:36 adds, "...What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies."
Similarly at Acts we see that Jesus was caught away in the clouds. This was after he died as the ransom. What do you think?
