for the Bible tells me so

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The bottom line: Christians need to judge others less (as in, not at all), and start loving people instead (and spread the Gospel indiscriminately). To do otherwise is to have the wrong focus, IMO.[/b]

Agreed, however, if one truly cares about someone and sees them in error, would they stand aside and let them walk in error, or even worse, tell them they are not really in error? In other words, if I see my brother harming himself in any way, would I try to correct him or let him harm himself if I loved him? I think it is a far cry from a judging and comdemning spirit who cares nothing about their brother, rather, they simply are focused on the sin rather than those who are in chains to that sin. Such people build up their own self righteous pride by bringing other down. In this respect, they say to themselves that they are really not so bad when compared to such ilk.

In short, if you really believe sin holds people in bondage and you care for them, you would focus on freeing them rather than condemning them to prison or to death.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I am cautious about becoming "sin centered". Whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it does not help the Christian to focus his or her attention upon the sin. My experience is that we have to look away to Jesus and enjoy Him.

Well said!

Part of the reason I'm concerned about the homosexuality issue in general, as it applies to the Christian e Gospel indiscriminately). To do otherwise is to have the wrong focus, IMO.[/b]

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I've been to church meetings expecting to be encouraged with a good sermon, fellowship, and some scripture, and instead have heard nothing but gay bashing.
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"The Church of Moral Outrage?"

James says "For the wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God." (James 1:20)

That is not a call to be drugged, or in a insensative stupor. But we can become like the patriarch Lot. He lived their in Sodom and was grieved by what he saw. Yet he had little spiritual power to overcome. His son in laws considered the warnings to escape with mockings.

Yet we have to feed upon Christ to the uttermost - "As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

We can only escape by eating, feasting, digesting, masticating, and thoroughly internalizing the living Spirit of Jesus Christ. He is resurrected and alive. He is in a form in which we can take Him into our being - ie. the "eat" Him. If we eat Him we will live because of Him.

And the one who responds to the gospel we also must help to learn to eat Christ. That is to also eat Him in His living word. After James tells us that the wrath of man cannot accomplish the righteousness of God he tells us to receive the living word of God in meekness:

"Therefore putting away all filthiness and the abundance of malice, receive in meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21)

Our moral outrage will not effectively save us nor anyone else. It may convict them ... maybe. But the living word is organic. It must be "implanted" as a living and operative seed into our hearts, then watered, then constantly nourished.

We therefore are not "sin centered" or "outrage centered". But we let the implanted word of God save our souls. Even our putting away of filthiness is FOR the purpose of better receiving the living word of God.

This has helped me greatly.

www.prayreading.org

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The small-mindedness of it all is not far above pure bigotry. Any church which devolves into a place where a minority segment of the population is consistently discriminated against is no church I want to be a part of.
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I understand. This outrage does not feed or nourish the inner man. It really can be unspiritual. Simply based on natural revulsion one cannot walk by the Spirit. Satan can use this campaigning as a destraction from receiving Christ the Living One - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

But also we have to be careful that we go to another error of justifying things which the Bible exposes and condemns.

The church in Ephesus hated what Jesus hated, the works of the Nicoliatans (Rev. 2:6) Jesus said that they "cannot bear evil men". Yet He also rebuked them for leaving their first love. "But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love." (v.4)

The first love is the love of Christ above all things. The preeminence must be given to Jesus. We should not exalt any life style above Jesus Himself nor be so centered on our intolerance for "evil men" that we loose our first love.

You tell the brothers that the most effective way to go on is to love the Lord Jesus. That church could discern false apostles. And they could not bear evil men. Yet Jesus was not happy that they had left their first love - the love that puts Jesus FIRST in everything.

Then He told them "Remember therefore where you have falen from and repent and do the first works ....

I feel the first works were the works that Jesus told Peter to do. Jesus told Peter that if Peter really loved Him, he would FEED his sheep and SHEPHERD His sheep. Teaching may not be feeding. To feed the sheep means that you nourish and supply the sheep with Christ as food, as spiritual sustenance. You have to eat Christ yourself first. Then from the abundance of your enjoying Christ, you can FEED others. This nourishment supplies them. And it builds them up into the Body.

I think the first works that the Ephesians got distracted from was the works of feeding and shepherding people into Jesus Christ the Person. They left their first love and they ceased their first works.

So Satan can be so subtle to cut of the church from her organic function even by a sense of moral outrage and camgaigning.

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In my opinion there are gay people who are legitimately gay and it is a travesty that they cannot feel welcome in many congregations due to the thinly veiled prejudices of regular Christian people. James said, "My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism... If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers" (James 2:1,8-9). Shouldn't Christians disburden themselves of the weight of judging others?
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I leave you the last word here.

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Christians are fond of saying, after calling homosexuality a sin, "but we all are sinners." If that is truly the case, then obviously being a sinner did not bar you from getting into heaven; why, then, should being gay bar a person from getting into heaven? We're all sinners, right?
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I do not take the passages I think you are refering to to mean that a gay person cannot be redeemed like any other believing sinner. I think that on three occasions Paul mentions quite a number of things which will keep a Christian disqualified to receive the reward of reigning in the coming millennial kingdom. Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I think these passages concern REWARD rather than eternal redemption:

"And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery,enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkeness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21)

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God. And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9)

"For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let not one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; FOr you were once darkness but now light in the Lord, walk as children of light." (Eph. 5:5-8)

I do not take any of three strong passages to mean that a gay person, or a fornicator for that matter, or a theif, or a drunkard cannot be saved eternally from perdition. I do take these passages to indicate that unless they are transformed they will not inherit the reward of the kingdom of Christ and God when the Lord Jesus comes back.

We must be transformed. And if we are redeemed by believing into Christ we cannot postpone forever our transformation. We simply will not go into eternity as morally unrighteous people in disposition.

Believe me. God has a way to give us the incentive to COOPERATE with His sanctification process. We will do so willingly in the church age. Or we will lose the reward of the kingdom of God in the millennium and be in the outer darkness to be changed.

These evil matters are listed. But the way they are listed leaves room for many other things. "such things as these ..."

I would also draw your attention to divisions, sects, factions, schools of opinion also. Most Christians don't even realize that to be denominated or divisive is a work of the flesh that can endanger the Christian's qualification to enjoy the coming kingdom of God. See
Gal. 5:19-21 above.

Not only fornication or homosexuality could cause you to lose the kingdom of God, even divisively fighting for your denomination and cutting off brothers in a sectarian way could ALSO disqualify you or me.

What does it SAY ? So we need to be humbled and to beware to thoroughly sanctified.

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However, that's not what is being communicated to gay people. They are often instructed to give up their gayness before cleaving to Jesus Christ as their Savior. Instead of being taught the Gospel, gay people are being judged and alienated. Can you see the danger in this? Especially considering that scripture does not explicitly condemn those who may have been born gay?
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I understand your concern. I think we have to be careful about the concept of being born this or that. We all have tendencies within us which we seemed to be born with.

I know a brother who has to turn to Jesus to overcome gluttony. He simply loves to eat delicious food. Having some Phd. teling him "Well, its is in your genes. You were born to naturally be a glutton" may offer little relief.

I hear that there is an organization called ...

Continued :

I hear that there is an organization called Exodus about people who have successfully left the gay lifestyle. I think in response to your points I will spend some time to see what they say.

May we really pray for wisdom though, because hating the sinner is not the way of Jesus. With that I agree.

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If homosexuality is a sin and absolutely everyone is born heterosexual (regardless of the fact that we live in a fallen universe), I still see no reason to single out gay people for public chastisement.
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That is a kind of political activism that some religious people think it is their duty to do.

We all (we Christians) will stand before Jesus to give an account of how we lived our Christian life. I don't want to judge too much. I will give an account and they also will give an account to the Master.

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Should they not be able to accept or reject the Gospel on its own merits the same as every other sinner? Shouldn't gay people, if their gayness is truly a sin, also be allowed to be convicted by the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit should so choose?
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I am in total agreement with this paragraph.

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If, on the other hand, there exist gay folks who are legitimately gay (in the same way you or I are legitimately straight), then the generic Christian position that homosexuality is always evil can do nothing but alienate gay people from the Truth (since they will conclude that Christ has rejected them already because of who they are).
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It is not an easy matter. And I feel the need to pray for wisdom from God.

Remember though, many will be alienated from our Gospel no matter what. If you have true Christian love in your heart and pray for the salvation of the sinner, do not be condemned if they still feel alienated.

Not everyone will receive the good news. Some gay people will receive it. Like every other Christian they need then to feed upon Jesus. We can feed the sheep with Christ as food. That is all we can do, feed the sheep.

I believe that this heavenly food does not allow a person to remain the same as they were as a sinner. At any rate introspection is not the way. Denying the self and enjoying Christ instead transforms and empowers.

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The bottom line: Christians need to judge others less (as in, not at all), and start loving people instead (and spread the Gospel indiscriminately). To do otherwise is to have the wrong focus, IMO.
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That's right IMO. The merciful will also obtain mercy.

The kingdom life is a life which is strict towards the self yet accomodating towards others.

That is NOT the natural man. That habit of most natural people is to be easy on the self and strict with other people. Some people are strict on themselves and also cause others around them to be harshly dealt with, making people around them miserable.

The principle of the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew is to be strict and exacting towards one's own Christian life but liberal and merciful towards others.

At the same time we meekly uphold the truth of the Bible. We should not comprimise the truth of the teaching. But in application we are strict firstly towards ourselves. With others we are merciful and prayerful in meekness.

I want to be that kind of disciple.

Just as Genesis 9:27 was used to further bigotry against blacks in America, the teachings of the Old Testament and Paul are used to further bigotry against gays.

Those who follow the Bible instead of the teachings of Jesus seem to often use it as a weapon to work against the will of God, i.e., truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. They seem to have convinced themselves that they are righteous despite this fact.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Just as Genesis 9:27 was used to further bigotry against blacks in America, the teachings of the Old Testament and Paul are used to further bigotry against gays.

Those who follow the Bible instead of the teachings of Jesus seem to often use it as a weapon to work against the will of God, i.e., truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. They seem to have convinced themselves that they are righteous despite this fact.

lol, still picking and choosing which portion of the ancient record suits your opinions, well consider this, Christians are under duress to love their fellow man, they are not, nor will ever be under duress to love the things that they do contrary to the revealed word of God!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, still picking and choosing which portion of the ancient record suits your opinions, well consider this, Christians are under duress to love their fellow man, they are not, nor will ever be under duress to love the things that they do contrary to the revealed word of God!

Many Christians seem to make allowances for their own sins, those who divorce and remarry, gluttons, the greedy, etc. Why are gays held to a different standard - denial of rights and / or ostracization? Especially since the Bible is mute on committed homosexual relationships.

Do you deny that the Bible is wrong about slavery?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Many Christians seem to make allowances for their own sins, those who divorce and remarry, gluttons, the greedy, etc. Why are gays held to a different standard - denial of rights and / or ostracization? Especially since the Bible is mute on committed homosexual relationships.

my dear thinkofone, if you actually consult the word of god you will be able to determine quite easily that all are equally reprehensible in gods view and the bible is not mute, far from it with regard to homosexual acts! Christians are under duress to love everyone, even their own enemies! the standards are clearly defined in scripture and as a consequence if anyone does not want to abide by those standards then they are bringing ostracism upon themselves! has not god the right to determine the standards set for his creation, does the pot say to the potter, what is this you have done in making me! or are you perhaps a god yourself, able to distinguish right from wrong and determine your own morality?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
my dear thinkofone, if you actually consult the word of god you will be able to determine quite easily that all are equally reprehensible in gods view and the bible is not mute, far from it with regard to homosexual acts! Christians are under duress to love everyone, even their own enemies! the standards are clearly defined in scripture and as a con ...[text shortened]... ou perhaps a god yourself, able to distinguish right from wrong and determine your own morality?

Why don't they ostracize those who divorce and remarry, gluttons, the greedy, etc. - and themselves if they haven't overcome sin? Are you amongst the hypocrites?

Also, what is condemned is men raping angels, heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, men who sexually abuse boys, men who engage in homosexual ritual sex in Pagan temples, men intent on raping other men, etc. The Bible is mute on sexual behavior within a consensual, monogamous committed homosexual relationship.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why don't they ostracize those who divorce and remarry, gluttons, the greedy, etc. - and themselves if they haven't overcome sin? Are you amongst the hypocrites?

Also, what is condemned is men raping angels, heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, men who sexually abuse boys, men who engage in homosexual ritual sex in Pagan temples, men intent on ...[text shortened]... is mute on sexual behavior within a consensual, monogamous committed homosexual relationship.

because there are scriptural grounds for a divorce, well one actually, the infidelity of either partner is a ground for divorce, the only one i hasten to add! and as regards the others it has already been stated that these are equally as serious, and in the case of an unrepentant practitioner, they too will bring ostracism on themselves!

as for being a hypocrite, perhaps you may point out my inconsistency and error.

and no you are quite wrong, the act of homosexuality is readily condemned, and i do not imagine for one minute, just because you try to give it the sanctity of marriage in whatever secularist and liberal terminology you deem appropriate, it matters not a jot! that the mere act is condemned is enough evidence for any reasonable person to make a conscientious judgment with regard to Gods thinking in the past or present or perhaps it seems you are more intent on establishing what is not written in scripture rather than what is, for it suits your propensity for establishing principles that are non existent, you remind me of that little worm, in that when the stone is overturned and he is exposed to the light, he does not like it and scurries away into the darkness where he feels safe and secure

'The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright; but if your eye is wicked, your whole body will be dark. If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!'.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because there are scriptural grounds for a divorce, well one actually, the infidelity of either partner is a ground for divorce, the only one i hasten to add! and as regards the others it has already been stated that these are equally as serious, and in the case of an unrepentant practitioner, they too will bring ostracism on themselves!

as for dark. [b]If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!'.[/b]

There are many who have divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried or have married those who divorced for reasons other than infidelity. There are many who are gluttons, greedy, etc. There are many who haven't overcome sin. If they haven't overcome sin, they have yet to have truly repented even if they declare themselves as such.

If you are not willing to support the ostracization of the above and do support the ostracization of gays, then you are a hypocrite.

Also, you really ought to take a closer look at the passages that speak against homosexuality. They are about the things that I outlined above. Not about monogomous, committed relationships.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There are many who have divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried. There are many who are gluttons, greedy, etc. There are many who haven't overcome sin. If they haven't overcome sin, they have yet to have truly repented even if they declare themselves as such.

If you are not willing to support the ostracization of the above and do supp ...[text shortened]... e.

You really ought to take a closer look at the passages that speak against homosexuality.

ahhh, whats up doc?, those who marry and divorce for ANY other reason other than INFIDELITY are guilty of adultery, its quite clear and simple, the Christ said as much,

Matthew 5;32, 'However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.', naturally the latter would mean a women not divorced on scriptural grounds! is that clear enough?

and no i do not hold to this self righteous thinking that those who struggle with sinful tendencies are unrepentant, no no no, its the willful practicing of sin that is condemned not the sort that occurs because of imperfection and is unintentional, and on the contrary as the scriptures clearly indicate the act of homosexuality is condemned, and yet you have tried every conceivable avenue open to you in attempt to justify it, that my friend is nothing short of blatant hypocrisy, infact its almost laughable as such!

are you, a man who does not even accept the validity of text which contradicts his own self formed opinions, now advising me to read some, does your own hypocrisy know no bounds? lol, it is to laugh!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ahhh, whats up doc?, those who marry and divorce for ANY other reason other than INFIDELITY are guilty of adultery, its quite clear and simple, the Christ said as much,

Matthew 5;32, 'However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman com ns, now advising me to read some, does your own hypocrisy know no bounds? lol, it is to laugh!

Try re-reading the following. It doesn't seem you understood it.

"There are many who have divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried or have married those who divorced for reasons other than infidelity. There are many who are gluttons, greedy, etc. There are many who haven't overcome sin. If they haven't overcome sin, they have yet to have truly repented even if they declare themselves as such.

"If you are not willing to support the ostracization of the above and do support the ostracization of gays, then you are a hypocrite."

The more you post, the more it seems you fit the following:
"Those who follow the Bible instead of the teachings of Jesus seem to often use it as a weapon to work against the will of God, i.e., truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. They seem to have convinced themselves that they are righteous despite this fact."

More's the pity.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try re-reading the following. It doesn't seem you understood it.

"There are many who have divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried or have married those who divorced for reasons other than infidelity. There are many who are gluttons, greedy, etc. There are many who haven't overcome sin. If they haven't overcome sin, they have yet to hav ...[text shortened]... ve convinced themselves that they are righteous despite this fact."

More's the pity.

ummm, i think Ive had enough, quite clearly you are a delusional uncompromising, self righteous, unmitigated long eared flea bitten galoot! sufferin succotash one would be as well as talking to the wall! you are willing to condemn others for adultery, gluttony, but not the homos for their iniquity, yet you have the audacity to cry hypocrite, if it wasn't so serious, it would be comical! how big is that rafter in your eye, are we talking a twig, or a large tree or perhaps a giant redwood forest! yet you can say, let me extract that little biddy straw from your eye! lol, it is to laugh

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ummm, i think Ive had enough, quite clearly you are a delusional uncompromising, self righteous, unmitigated long eared flea bitten galoot! sufferin succotash one would be as well as talking to the wall! you are willing to condemn others for adultery, gluttony, but not the homos for their iniquity, yet you have the audacity to cry hypocrite, if it wa est! yet you can say, let me extract that little biddy straw from your eye! lol, it is to laugh

I have to wonder if you still didn't understand the meaning of my posts. However, it seems more likely that you are "playing dumb".

Fascinating how so many resort to a stream of accusations, name-calling and misrepresentations when light is shined on their bigotry and hypocrisy. Evidently it's your only defense.

Follow the teachings of Jesus. The truth will make you free.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
There are many who have divorced for reasons other than infidelity and remarried or have married those who divorced for reasons other than infidelity. There are many who are gluttons, greedy, etc. There are many who haven't overcome sin. If they haven't overcome sin, they have yet to have truly repented even if they declare themselves as such.

If you ...[text shortened]... hey are about the things that I outlined above. Not about monogomous, committed relationships.

I'm afraid Leviticus 18:22 shoots that point down, ToO. "you shall not lie witha amale as with a woman. It is an abomination." Nothing there about consenting adults, hetero- or homo-. Now I agree, it's a forgiveable sin, as are all the others you mentioned (divorce, gluttony, avarice, etc), but a sin nonetheless. Good thing we're all saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, or we would all be in a mess, would we not?