Originally posted by 667joe
Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin? If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus, would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful? What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred. It makes no sense. Frankly, what Da ional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin?
With no offense intended, this questions is of the sort Paul advized Christians to avoid as a foolish one IMO.
I suppose you mean what if we substitute man for the ultimate moral governor rather than God, then what ?
I suppose I would reply that as man seems neither to be the ultimate source of the existence of the created universe so also man appears not to be its ultimate Authority - it's "god".
As man has not the ultimate Power
behind our existence, so also I doubt that man has the ultimate Athority
. So I think to look elsewhere for the problem answering to the ultimate Definer of sins and ultimate Enforcer (spelling?) of retribution or forgiveness of sins violation.
Nor have I known of a sinless man who was qualified for the job, short of Jesus Christ. And He claims to be that ultimate God come as a man.
You and I of course can forgive and certainly should. But I don't believe that ultimately it is our human forgiveness which is the most important.
"Vengence is Mine, says the Lord. I will repay."
See also Deut. 32:41.
God in the Bible, renders those who sins as His advararies. He gave the law of Moses to Israel. When they broke it He discribed the nations as His advasaries.
The great doctrine of Reconcilation
concerns the removing of the enmity between God and the sinner. That is not only forgiveness but ending the relationship of of enmity between two enemies. Sin has made man an enemy of God. Though God still loves man He must reconcile man to Himself.
If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus,
I have never hear the expression of "atoning to Jesus". However I think I know what you mean.
Now, you foolishly make a hypothetical of there being no God. Then you speak of "atoning to" the One to whom atonement is solely BASED upon the fact that He is Son of God - God the Son.
There is NO teaching from Jesus or ANYWHERE in the Bible communicating that a sinner should be atoned from sin by a merely non Divine man called Jesus.
So your concept is self contradictory. Atonement through Jesus in the Bible is based on two things:
1.) God had to become a man so that He could experience death.
2.) His being God as well as a man makes the effectiveness and significance of that death have eternal results. The atonement is eternal and effective because He is God-Man.
So according to your first idea, there ios no socalled "atoning to Jesus" if there is no God. If there is no God then there is no Son of God and there is no Savior.
And it is questionable if there is any sin to be concerned with really if there is no God. At least the bases for assuming God-less "sin" is anything not flimsy enough to lose a night's sleep over.
would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful?
I would have ignored all the teachings about forgiveness between people as taught in the Bible, if I thought forgiveness between people was not meaningful.
As a Christian we are taught "Forgive us our depts as we forgive our depters."
As God has forgiven us our trespasses, based upon this it is right that we should forgive other's trespasses against us.
One reason why skeptics like yourself do not love God is because you have never sensed the sweetness of having been forgiven by God. He that is forgiven much loves much. He who has been forgiven little loves little.
It is not that you have sinned only a little. It is that you are little aware of your sins. If you realized how guilty you actually are before a holy God and how much He has gone through to save you from damnation, then you might seek forgiveness, experience it, and in turn love God.
I hope you realize your need for God's forgiveness before it is too late and you have no longer any opportunity to be atoned for through the Savior - the Son of God Jesus Christ.
What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred.
It makes perfect sense to me - that stealing Jim's wife it would be wonderful to be forgiven BY Jim. But it is much more important to be forgiven by God.
For God said "Vengence is Mine ... I will repay"
The one who ultimate has the authority and power to put back in balance the scales of Justice is NOT Jim nor Fred. It is God.
This is not a matter of obtaiing good feelings where feelings have been offended. It is a matter of Justice - legal justice.
God can love you but still have to punish you because of the demand of Justice. There is not only a demand of love. There is the demand of righteousness and justice. The offense is not simply against Jim for stealing his wife. The offense is against Truth
for stealing Jim's wife.
Jim is not the ultimate Enforcer of Truth and Justice in the universe, God Almighty is.
And God is the Ultimate Savior and Forgiver of offenses against Truth and Rightouesness.
It makes no sense. Frankly, what David did was very contemptible and worthy of a prison sentence especially since the woman's husband died.
If you think that God's forgiveness of David was without any unpleasant circumstances of discipline to David, you have not read the Bible too well.
That's OK though. Just go BACK and read it again. No problem. We all are superfiscial in our reading of the Bible and need to often re-visit, re-read.
Especially pay attention to the troubles David suffered under his own son Absolom. NOtice also that God did not let the child of David's adultery live though David pleaded with God.
I wrote a thread on Forgiveness With Discipline under Five Kinds of Forgiveness in the Bible. Perhaps you should read it. Point here is that David did not get away with no consequences to his sin.
Some time we are forgiven but we have to endure consequences of our sins. David did not have to endure eternal punishment as a consquence for his sins.
It sounds like murder to me and the idea that a fictional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
Sounds to me like you haven't read the account.
David was forgiven. But he was not able to escape the discipline that followed him for the rest of his life because of his sin.