1. Maryland
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    05 Oct '08 00:56
    It seems to me that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who as sinned against. To think that Jesus can forgive a sinner is hogwash!
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    05 Oct '08 01:49
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It seems to me that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who as sinned against. To think that Jesus can forgive a sinner is hogwash!
    ==========================================
    It seems to me that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who as sinned against. To think that Jesus can forgive a sinner is hogwash!
    ==============================================


    Obviousy the Bible doesn't teach that it is "hogwash" for Jesus to forgive sins.

    First of all David, as a representative sinner, showed us that when he sinned, it was against God:

    Psalm 51 is the Psalm David wrote after he was convicted of his sins of having Uriah, the husband of Bethsheba murdered. This he did to conceal the sin of his having commited adultery with Uriah's wife to produce a child.

    Here is a portion of David's prayer of repentence:

    Wash me thoughly from my uniquity, and from my sin cleanse me. For I do know my transgression, and my sin is before me continually.

    Against You and You alone have I sinned, And I have done what is evil in Your sight ..." (Psa. 51:2-4)
    .

    It was against Uriah and Bethsheba that David sinned. But here he is most aware that his sin was against God - "Against You and You alone have I sinned."

    All our sins are against God. God is the one from whom forgiveness is most important.

    In the New Testament the Son of Man Jesus had authority to forgive sins. And the NT teaches that to think that Jesus did not have this authority to forgive sins was to think evil. In other words, your thinking that Jesus cannot forgive sins is to God, your evil thinking.

    Here is the proof:

    "... And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Take courage, child; your sins are forgiven. And behold, some of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemes.

    And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Rise and walk?

    But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - then He said to the parlytic, Rise, take up your bed and go to your house.

    And he arose and went away to his house." (Matthew 9:2b - 7)



    1.) To think Jesus had no authority to forgive sins was to think evil.

    2.) Jesus, as the Son of Man, had authority to forgive sins.

    3.) He demonstrated that His authority to forgive was accompanied by His authority to heal by miraculous power.

    See also Mark 2:5-11 - "Son, your sins are forgiven." The scribes correctly responded "Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

    This of course does not mean that only God forgives. It means that only God has the authority to forgive so as to remove guilt. God alone has authority to enact eternal redemption from sins.

    Jesus had and still has that same authority because He is God incarnate.
  3. Maryland
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    05 Oct '08 04:55
    Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin? If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus, would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful? What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred. It makes no sense. Frankly, what David did was very contemptible and worthy of a prison sentence especially since the woman's husband died. It sounds like murder to me and the idea that a fictional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
  4. Cape Town
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    05 Oct '08 06:15
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin? If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus, would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful? What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred. It makes no sense. Frankly, what Da ...[text shortened]... ional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
    The word 'sin' is often used to mean 'an offense against God'. When you offend someone else, you are also offending God because God does not like it when you offend others.
    When your 'sins' are forgiven by God, he is forgiving you for offending him, he is not forgiving you on behalf of any person you may have offended. If you want forgiveness from them then seek it from them -if they are still alive 🙂

    I disagree with jaywills claim that David did sin against the people he murdered. David himself makes it quite clear that he didn't.
    He murdered them, and it was upto his contempories to do something about it, and up to us to judge him a contemptible human being. Clearly many Jews and Christians have been able to overlook his horrible acts partly on the basis that if God forgave him then they will too.

    I agree with you that it is a dangerous belief if you believe that the only forgiveness you need is from God and if all guilt for past wrongs is cleared when you feel forgiven by God. I have seen people use it as a defence eg a convicted murderer is asked whether they have sought the forgiveness of the victims family may say "God has forgiven me and that is enough".
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    05 Oct '08 11:53
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It seems to me that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who as sinned against. To think that Jesus can forgive a sinner is hogwash!
    The term repent means to turn away from. So when we sin we have the option to continue therein or turn away from it. To turn away from sin is the best case scenario when someone sins and is the focus of scripture. Unfortunately, we do not have the ability to go back into time and "fix" things. Having said that, it is scriptural to go to the people you have wronged and ask for forgiveness, however, that is ALL we can do. If they do not then accept our apology after we are repentant then there is nothing else that can be done. In fact, the sin now lies with them because they too need forgiveness. How is it that they should be forgiven their sins if they will not accept the forgiveness of others?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    05 Oct '08 12:18
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It seems to me that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who as sinned against. To think that Jesus can forgive a sinner is hogwash!
    Absolutely right! It is utter hogwash for any human being to claim he can forgive the sin of someone when he is not being sinned against. It should be the person who is sinned against that forgives the sin. It makes no sense for Jesus to make this claim. It's sheer unadulterated arrogance!!!!

    .....but...what if Jesus IS being sinned against? Jesus taught then when we hurt our brother we are hurting him and when we feed our brother we feed him. If Jesus lives in us all then it makes perfect sense that he can forgive all these sins. If he is a mere "human teacher" then such claims should be dimissed as nonesense.

    Of course we all know that Jesus was perfectly sane and never claimed to be anything more than a human teacher.............. 😀
  7. weedhopper
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    06 Oct '08 05:20
    You know, the reverse of the original poster's point has come up in Sunday School several times: the point was that in order TO forgive someone who has wronged you, don't they have to ask for it? I know we are supposed to be quick to forgive, but does that mean so quick that we forgive even if there is no contrition on the part of the trespasser?
  8. England
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    06 Oct '08 11:12
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    You know, the reverse of the original poster's point has come up in Sunday School several times: the point was that in order TO forgive someone who has wronged you, don't they have to ask for it? I know we are supposed to be quick to forgive, but does that mean so quick that we forgive even if there is no contrition on the part of the trespasser?
    in forgiving we are forgiven its gods call always.... if you say i forgive but in your heart you await a time to seek revenge. Many will wrong you during your life as you will wrong others. And we will be accounted for all we say and do just pray the balance is in your favour.
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    06 Oct '08 11:211 edit
    Originally posted by stoker
    in forgiving we are forgiven its gods call always.... if you say i forgive but in your heart you await a time to seek revenge.
    But isn't revenge what christianity stands for? Isn't the great flood a revenge from god? Telling us to revenge when you have the power to do so...? Surely there are more examples of this in the bible, that revenge is encouraged by the bible and god himself?
  10. Cape Town
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    06 Oct '08 12:11
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course we all know that Jesus was perfectly sane and never claimed to be anything more than a human teacher.............. 😀
    Interesting your sarcasm implies that you believe Jesus to have been insane.
  11. Cape Town
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    06 Oct '08 12:14
    Originally posted by whodey
    If they do not then accept our apology after we are repentant then there is nothing else that can be done. In fact, the sin now lies with them because they too need forgiveness. How is it that they should be forgiven their sins if they will not accept the forgiveness of others?
    The offended may now be a sinner (against God) for having refused forgiveness, but your implication that the original sin has been transfered or that the original offender is now forgiven, or cleared of his guilt is incorrect.
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    06 Oct '08 17:43
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    But isn't revenge what christianity stands for? Isn't the great flood a revenge from god? Telling us to revenge when you have the power to do so...? Surely there are more examples of this in the bible, that revenge is encouraged by the bible and god himself?
    No.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    06 Oct '08 18:53
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    You know, the reverse of the original poster's point has come up in Sunday School several times: the point was that in order TO forgive someone who has wronged you, don't they have to ask for it? I know we are supposed to be quick to forgive, but does that mean so quick that we forgive even if there is no contrition on the part of the trespasser?
    Is there some part of the Bible that requires there to be contrition before forgiveness? Note that the word 'contrition' is not in the Bible.
  14. Joined
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    06 Oct '08 19:483 edits
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin? If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus, would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful? What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred. It makes no sense. Frankly, what Da ional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
    =============================================
    Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin?
    ============================================


    With no offense intended, this questions is of the sort Paul advized Christians to avoid as a foolish one IMO.

    I suppose you mean what if we substitute man for the ultimate moral governor rather than God, then what ?

    I suppose I would reply that as man seems neither to be the ultimate source of the existence of the created universe so also man appears not to be its ultimate Authority - it's "god".

    As man has not the ultimate Power behind our existence, so also I doubt that man has the ultimate Athority. So I think to look elsewhere for the problem answering to the ultimate Definer of sins and ultimate Enforcer (spelling?) of retribution or forgiveness of sins violation.

    Nor have I known of a sinless man who was qualified for the job, short of Jesus Christ. And He claims to be that ultimate God come as a man.

    You and I of course can forgive and certainly should. But I don't believe that ultimately it is our human forgiveness which is the most important.

    "Vengence is Mine, says the Lord. I will repay." See also Deut. 32:41.

    God in the Bible, renders those who sins as His advararies. He gave the law of Moses to Israel. When they broke it He discribed the nations as His advasaries.

    The great doctrine of Reconcilation concerns the removing of the enmity between God and the sinner. That is not only forgiveness but ending the relationship of of enmity between two enemies. Sin has made man an enemy of God. Though God still loves man He must reconcile man to Himself.


    =============================================
    If I were to steal your wife and get off the hook by atoning to Jesus,
    ===============================================


    I have never hear the expression of "atoning to Jesus". However I think I know what you mean.

    Now, you foolishly make a hypothetical of there being no God. Then you speak of "atoning to" the One to whom atonement is solely BASED upon the fact that He is Son of God - God the Son.

    There is NO teaching from Jesus or ANYWHERE in the Bible communicating that a sinner should be atoned from sin by a merely non Divine man called Jesus.

    So your concept is self contradictory. Atonement through Jesus in the Bible is based on two things:

    1.) God had to become a man so that He could experience death.

    2.) His being God as well as a man makes the effectiveness and significance of that death have eternal results. The atonement is eternal and effective because He is God-Man.

    So according to your first idea, there ios no socalled "atoning to Jesus" if there is no God. If there is no God then there is no Son of God and there is no Savior.

    And it is questionable if there is any sin to be concerned with really if there is no God. At least the bases for assuming God-less "sin" is anything not flimsy enough to lose a night's sleep over.

    ====================================
    would you feel any better? Don't you think that you are the person whose forgiveness is meaningful?
    ===================================


    I would have ignored all the teachings about forgiveness between people as taught in the Bible, if I thought forgiveness between people was not meaningful.

    As a Christian we are taught "Forgive us our depts as we forgive our depters." As God has forgiven us our trespasses, based upon this it is right that we should forgive other's trespasses against us.

    One reason why skeptics like yourself do not love God is because you have never sensed the sweetness of having been forgiven by God. He that is forgiven much loves much. He who has been forgiven little loves little.

    It is not that you have sinned only a little. It is that you are little aware of your sins. If you realized how guilty you actually are before a holy God and how much He has gone through to save you from damnation, then you might seek forgiveness, experience it, and in turn love God.

    I hope you realize your need for God's forgiveness before it is too late and you have no longer any opportunity to be atoned for through the Savior - the Son of God Jesus Christ.

    ===============================================
    What you say is like stealing Jim's wife and apologizing to Fred.
    ==============================================


    It makes perfect sense to me - that stealing Jim's wife it would be wonderful to be forgiven BY Jim. But it is much more important to be forgiven by God.

    For God said "Vengence is Mine ... I will repay"

    The one who ultimate has the authority and power to put back in balance the scales of Justice is NOT Jim nor Fred. It is God.

    This is not a matter of obtaiing good feelings where feelings have been offended. It is a matter of Justice - legal justice.

    God can love you but still have to punish you because of the demand of Justice. There is not only a demand of love. There is the demand of righteousness and justice. The offense is not simply against Jim for stealing his wife. The offense is against Truth and Righteousness for stealing Jim's wife.

    Jim is not the ultimate Enforcer of Truth and Justice in the universe, God Almighty is.

    And God is the Ultimate Savior and Forgiver of offenses against Truth and Rightouesness.

    =================================
    It makes no sense. Frankly, what David did was very contemptible and worthy of a prison sentence especially since the woman's husband died.
    ========================================



    If you think that God's forgiveness of David was without any unpleasant circumstances of discipline to David, you have not read the Bible too well.

    That's OK though. Just go BACK and read it again. No problem. We all are superfiscial in our reading of the Bible and need to often re-visit, re-read.

    Especially pay attention to the troubles David suffered under his own son Absolom. NOtice also that God did not let the child of David's adultery live though David pleaded with God.

    I wrote a thread on Forgiveness With Discipline under Five Kinds of Forgiveness in the Bible. Perhaps you should read it. Point here is that David did not get away with no consequences to his sin.

    Some time we are forgiven but we have to endure consequences of our sins. David did not have to endure eternal punishment as a consquence for his sins.

    =======================================
    It sounds like murder to me and the idea that a fictional god let David off the hook, and the fact that it meets your approval is very dangerous.
    =======================================


    Sounds to me like you haven't read the account.

    David was forgiven. But he was not able to escape the discipline that followed him for the rest of his life because of his sin.
  15. Standard memberNemesio
    Ursulakantor
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    06 Oct '08 20:19
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=============================================
    Just suppose that you are wrong and there is no god,who then can forgive the sin?
    ============================================


    With no offense intended, this questions is of the sort Paul advized Christians to avoid as a foolish one IMO.

    I suppose you mean what if we substitute man for the u ...[text shortened]... ine that followed him for the rest of his life because of his sin.[/b]
    If you spent as much time in a soup kitchen as you did composing these voluminous posts at all
    hours of the day and night, you'd cure world hunger in like 2 months.

    Nemesio
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