Originally posted by twhiteheadI think perhaps we have a semantic issue again. I am using the word 'forgive' to mean "to stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw or mistake". I do not think that this involves forgetting all about the offence, and I don't think that it involves freedom from consequences for the offender.
No. You won't.
[b]I don't agree that this is necessarily the case. Would you like to explain your reasoning?
People will very quickly figure out that they can do whatever they like without repercussions. Some people will.[/b]
Originally posted by avalanchethecatTell me more about how you can forgive someone, yet still put him in jail?
I think perhaps we have a semantic issue again. I am using the word 'forgive' to mean "to stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw or mistake". I do not think that this involves forgetting all about the offence, and I don't think that it involves freedom from consequences for the offender.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatWhat if everyone in society forgives him? I think you are dodging the question. If it is you that is in charge of meting out the punishment (lets say its your child), then what?
My forgiveness or lack thereof towards an offender has no bearing whatsoever on the sentence meted out by society for the transgression of it's laws.
I think you may have a valid point, I just want to see how it plays out.
Originally posted by twhiteheadEven if I were the sentencing judge and the offence in question had been committed against me or mine and the transgressor was my child, I see no difficulty in reconciling forgiveness and incarceration if that be the recommended consequence laid down in law for the infraction. I am of the opinion that the retention of rancour on my part would merely serve to prolong or enhance the suffering to which I may have already been subjected.
What if everyone in society forgives him? I think you are dodging the question. If it is you that is in charge of meting out the punishment (lets say its your child), then what?
I think you may have a valid point, I just want to see how it plays out.
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Originally posted by RJHindsI'm sure forgiveness helps you in reducing the stress level on your own body. Cortisol is a nasty hormone and can wreck havoc with the body so anything that reduces that stuff is a good thing.
That is a good start toward the answer. But the main idea is when you
forgive someone that has come back in humility and apologizes, do you
feel your act of forgiveness also benefits you in any way?
This has nothing to do with religion.
Originally posted by sonhousehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
I'm sure forgiveness helps you in reducing the stress level on your own body. Cortisol is a nasty hormone and can wreck havoc with the body so anything that reduces that stuff is a good thing.
This has nothing to do with religion.
^^ was an interesting read, thanks sonhouse, gave me something to think about during my sleepless night.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatSo the forgiveness in question, is not about the person being forgiven, but about the forgiver? ie it is a selfish thing.
Even if I were the sentencing judge and the offence in question had been committed against me or mine and the transgressor was my child, I see no difficulty in reconciling forgiveness and incarceration if that be the recommended consequence laid down in law for the infraction. I am of the opinion that the retention of rancour on my part would merely serve to prolong or enhance the suffering to which I may have already been subjected.
That seems to be totally opposite to Jesus' general message of love for one another.
yo its me, do you have any comment on this? Is this the kind of forgiveness that you believe is part of most religions?
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't know about religions in general, perhaps I shouldn't have put that in my opening post, but I do think forgiveness is as much about the person forgiving as the person being forgiven.
So the forgiveness in question, is not about the person being forgiven, but about the forgiver? ie it is a selfish thing.
That seems to be totally opposite to Jesus' general message of love for one another.
yo its me, do you have any comment on this? Is this the kind of forgiveness that you believe is part of most religions?
For example to forgive my dad (for being a crap dad) it changes nothing for him, since he is not alive. But it changes me, means I am free to not feel anger or resentment towards him when I tell my children about him.
I don't think it's opposite to Jesus' message which was to love one another as you love yourself; which to me means first you have to know how to love them by loving yourself. To explain that let me use the analogy of food- before I know what's good to give my children I try it myself.
I wanted to know what people thought about forgivness really. I've been chatting with someone over the idea that not forgiving people holds us back, keeps us trapped and I wanted to explore that idea here with you learned lot 🙂
Originally posted by yo its meOK, 'opposite' was a poorly chosen word. What I mean, is that selfish forgiveness, is not really an expression of love for another ie it doesn't follow directly from the 'love your neighbour' philosophy.
I don't think it's opposite to Jesus' message which was to love one another as you love yourself;
I am also thinking about how it fits into the lords prayer. ie if your forgiveness for others is about you and not them, then is not Gods forgiveness of you, about him and not you? ("forgive us as we forgive others"😉
I wanted to know what people thought about forgivness really. I've been chatting with someone over the idea that not forgiving people holds us back, keeps us trapped and I wanted to explore that idea here with you learned lot 🙂
I do think that 'selfish forgiveness' (for want of a better name) can be very important and relieve a lot of stress. But I am having trouble reconciling it with continuing to punish the perpetrator. I am also not convinced that the forgiveness mentioned in the lords prayer is this kind of forgiveness.
Originally posted by twhiteheadif God forgives us then He is able to acept us and see past what we've done. It dosen't need to change anything about Him becasue He is perfect and in that way forgiveness is different when it's from God imo.
OK, 'opposite' was a poorly chosen word. What I mean, is that selfish forgiveness, is not really an expression of love for another ie it doesn't follow directly from the 'love your neighbour' philosophy.
I am also thinking about how it fits into the lords prayer. ie if your forgiveness for others is about you and not them, then is not Gods forgiveness ...[text shortened]... vinced that the forgiveness mentioned in the lords prayer is this kind of forgiveness.
His forgivness is complete and that's how He wants us to forgive, being only human we're not really capable, imo, but that's the aim.
I do think that 'selfish forgiveness' (for want of a better name) can be very important and relieve a lot of stress.
Thank you, that's what I wondered- what people thought about it or if, being Christian is why I was asuming that everyone thought this.
I must also add, that generally the people we tend to hold grudges about are those who we care about, and those whose opinion we value. There are exceptions, for example if someone causes serious harm to me or a loved one, I may hold a serious grudge, but for minor offences I tend to brush it off if it is someone I don't know well. But if it is someone close to me, I will take an offence as and indication that that person does not care for me or appreciate me in some way and for that reason will tend to be more offended and hold the grudge longer. Love and hate go together.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't see it quite the way you are expressing it there. Consider, if you will, the parental punishment of an errant child. Do you think that the parent suspends their love during the punishment? And on from that, do you think that Jesus' message of love and forgiveness extends to non-punishment of criminals?
So the forgiveness in question, is not about the person being forgiven, but about the forgiver? ie it is a selfish thing.
That seems to be totally opposite to Jesus' general message of love for one another.
yo its me, do you have any comment on this? Is this the kind of forgiveness that you believe is part of most religions?
I think that bearing of a grudge is not necessary to provide caution regarding placing trust in someone who has demonstrated themselves unworthy of that. One can forgive them, love them according to Jesus' instructions, and still institute fair punishment and abstain from crediting them with one's trust again. The offender may of course earn one's trust again in the future, once society's penalty has been paid.
I don't think this is really a selfish attitude towards forgiveness. This to my mind is following the golden rule - treating others as one would wish to be treated one's self. I would not wish my 'victim' to suffer onwards due to his inability to forgive me, and neither would I expect his forgiveness to involve the waiving of my fair sentence in law.
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Love and hate go together.
I don't think this is a healthy attitude. I believe that hate is a purely negative emotion which can only hurt the hater.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatA parent often does not hold a grudge against a child. The punishment is usually corrective rather than revenge. But I am not sure how this works beyond childhood.
I don't see it quite the way you are expressing it there. Consider, if you will, the parental punishment of an errant child. Do you think that the parent suspends their love during the punishment? And on from that, do you think that Jesus' message of love and forgiveness extends to non-punishment of criminals?
I have actually been a strong supporter of not using punishment even for criminals but rather corrective action - which includes things like education and skills training rather than hard labour and jail time. I have often questioned a popular theist claim that justice requires a payment for a crime and that punishment can only be averted if someone else pays (Jesus).
I think that bearing of a grudge is not necessary to provide caution regarding placing trust in someone who has demonstrated themselves unworthy of that.
But it does help, which is why we evolved the tendency. But I am not arguing that we must act on our natural tendencies.
Love and hate go together.
I don't think this is a healthy attitude. I believe that hate is a purely negative emotion which can only hurt the hater.
It is not an attitude, it is a fact. We tend to hate those we love more than anyone else. And yes it is the hater that is hurt and forgiveness is the best solution. And in some cases, it is best to forgiveness and part ways.