1. Joined
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    28 Apr '07 04:09
    If I put my wallet in front of your house knowing that you would come out and see it, take it and keep the money does that mean i made you do it? Did I physically make you pick it up and put a gun to your head and make you keep it? The point is, I knew you would pick it up and keep the money; assuming that I can see the future, does that mean you had no choice? When you went to pick it up you had a choice to keep it or give it to me, and you chose to keep it and I knew you would do it but I didn't force you to; so how does God take away your free will?
  2. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    28 Apr '07 04:13
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    If I put my wallet in front of your house knowing that you would come out and see it, take it and keep the money does that mean i made you do it? Did I physically make you pick it up and put a gun to your head and make you keep it? The point is, I knew you would pick it up and keep the money; assuming that I can see the future, does that mean you had n ...[text shortened]... and I knew you would do it but I didn't force you to; so how does God take away your free will?
    I think that's entrapment.
  3. Joined
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    28 Apr '07 04:20
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I think that's entrapment.
    you have to show somebody evil and good to give them free will, you can not just show them good; they would have no choice to be good because they would not know of evil, and that is not free will.
  4. Donationrwingett
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    28 Apr '07 06:46
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    you have to show somebody evil and good to give them free will, you can not just show them good; they would have no choice to be good because they would not know of evil, and that is not free will.
    But they did not know about good and evil until they ate from the tree. God forbade them to eat from the tree and learn of good and evil. That is why they were punished.

    Genisis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" –23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden...

    So, by your reasoning, if knowledge of good and evil is a prerequisite for free will, then it's a Catch 22. God wants them to have freewill, but he forbids them to take the step that enables it...

    According to the story, when god made Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed life into his nostrils, he foresaw already that Adam would eat from the tree, and he knew the exact second he would do so. It is not possible to "surprise" an omniscient being. But god created Adam anyway, knowing full well what would happen. If god wanted a different result, he could have used a slightly different dust/breath ratio to achieve a more favorable result. The fact that god went with that particular version of Adam, out of all the possible versions of Adam, indicates that that is exactly what god wanted all along. He knew that the chain of events he set in motion, beginning with the creation of Adam, would culminate in the eating of the apple. He could have tweaked those starting conditions to achieve any eventual result he desired, but he went with that particular version because THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED. Mankind was meant to fail from the very start. It was a setup from the beginning. Every result that comes about is necessarily the result that god wants. It is not possible for any result to come about that is contrary to god's will.
  5. Joined
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    28 Apr '07 15:15
    Originally posted by rwingett
    But they did not know about good and evil until they ate from the tree. God forbade them to eat from the tree and learn of good and evil. That is why they were punished.

    Genisis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, an ...[text shortened]... god wants. It is not possible for any result to come about that is contrary to god's will.
    no that is totally wrong, he could not "tweak" the way he made adam, that would be toying with his free will. that would be like forcing him to be good, God would not just say "Oh lets tweak him a little and make him good." God knew mankind would "fail" but he would not take away our free will to make us "pass"; so his son died for our sins and saved us. in the end, we have free will and if we believe we go to heaven; according to the bible.
  6. Donationrwingett
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    28 Apr '07 15:41
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    no that is totally wrong, he could not "tweak" the way he made adam, that would be toying with his free will. that would be like forcing him to be good, God would not just say "Oh lets tweak him a little and make him good." God knew mankind would "fail" but he would not take away our free will to make us "pass"; so his son died for our sins and saved u ...[text shortened]... in the end, we have free will and if we believe we go to heaven; according to the bible.
    Perhaps I have overburdened you by presenting two concepts in the same post. I have no interest in your opinion on the second half. I want to hear how you spin the first half. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil until after they had eaten from the tree.
  7. Territories Unknown
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    28 Apr '07 16:19
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    you have to show somebody evil and good to give them free will, you can not just show them good; they would have no choice to be good because they would not know of evil, and that is not free will.
    Before the door of the knowledge of good and evil was opened, it was all good.
  8. Joined
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    28 Apr '07 18:13
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Perhaps I have overburdened you by presenting two concepts in the same post. I have no interest in your opinion on the second half. I want to hear how you spin the first half. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil until [b]after they had eaten from the tree.[/b]
    they have to see evil so that after they see it, they can choose either good or evil.
  9. CA, USA
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    28 Apr '07 18:49
    Good question .. why DID God introduce evil?

    Maybe we're just some creative plaything of Gods.

    A lion doesn't know evil .. he just kills the lamb for food.
    A man may kill a lion for "sport" .. that's evil. He knows it and does it anyway. That's a choice. The lion doesn't choose, he just does.

    The tree of knowledge, what does that mean? The knowledge of good/evil? The story of Adam and Eve goes that everything was going along perfect 'til that damn tree was brought into the equation. And then, the snake with his special tricks ..

    Desire

    Temptation

    I want that apple!

    I know God said "anything but that apple", but look at that thing man .. juicy!

    Shortly after that is when the lighting hit the mudpuddle I think
  10. Donationrwingett
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    28 Apr '07 19:56
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Before the door of the knowledge of good and evil was opened, it was all good.
    Was the serpent good?
  11. Donationrwingett
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    28 Apr '07 20:07
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    they have to see evil so that after they see it, they can choose either good or evil.
    What evil did they see? Freaky seems to think there was no evil until after they ate from the tree. Are you claiming that evil predated that event? In any case, the bible is quite explicit in that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate from the tree. Furthermore, it is quite apparent that god did not want them to have this knowledge. If Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil until after they ate from the tree, did they also not have free will before then either? Does it follow that god did not even intend for mankind to have free will at all?
  12. CA, USA
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    28 Apr '07 20:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Was the serpent good?
    The serpent was "just doin' his job" IMO, but seems to represent evil.

    A tool of Gods .. an underling brought in to make things interesting for His children.
  13. Donationrwingett
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    28 Apr '07 20:19
    Originally posted by jammer
    The serpent was "just doin' his job" IMO, but seems to represent evil.

    A tool of Gods .. an underling brought in to make things interesting for His children.
    That is exactly the conclusion I reach.
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    28 Apr '07 20:24
    Originally posted by jammer
    A man may kill a lion for "sport" .. that's evil.
    sheesh.. I guess Im evil then. What should I do?
  15. CA, USA
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    29 Apr '07 00:46
    Originally posted by flyUnity
    sheesh.. I guess Im evil then. What should I do?
    please kill yourself
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