1. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    19 Sep '17 12:212 edits
    I see the subject of free will coming up again and again on these forums. It seems to be the key for many ideologies and world views.

    For example, love is not really love without free will. If we take FMF's assertion that we do not have a choice in loving someone, is it really love? Can someone force you to love another? It seems to me that if two parties do not have the free will to accept or reject the other, then love does not exist. In fact, when we perceive that someone if forcing us to love another, we tend to try and push them away. At best, we must have the illusion of having the freedom of choice to accept or reject them or love does not work.

    Then there is this battle over the existence of hell. Hell is a place people go as a result of choosing to do evil. Without free will, this choice does not exist, therefore, hell could not possibly exist because you can't punish people for something you can't hold them accountable for doing In fact, our whole judicial system is awry if we continue to hold people accountable for what they do.

    If no free will exists, then God is either forcing us to reject or accept him. This seems ludicrous. Why would God do such a thing? In fact, why do we get all bent out of shape if we perceive that we don't have freedom? Why do we get so upset about losing our free will if it does not really exist?

    Human experience and observation makes the notion that free will does not exist completely erroneous.

    Never forget, Jesus said that through him there is liberty and freedom, through man only bondage. God births us into the world free, which man later tries to take away.
  2. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    19 Sep '17 12:49
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Then there is this battle over the existence of hell. Hell is a place people go as a result of choosing to do evil. Without free will, this choice does not exist, therefore, hell could not possibly exist because you can't punish people for something you can't hold them accountable for doing In fact, our whole judicial system is awry if we continue to hold people accountable for what they do.
    I'm sure you're familiar with the doctrine of election, discussed by Paul, that makes it clear we don't have a choice. God chose some people for grace and chose others for wrath, according to the bible.

    If no free will exists, then God is either forcing us to reject or accept him. This seems ludicrous. Why would God do such a thing? In fact, why do we get all bent out of shape if we perceive that we don't have freedom? Why do we get so upset about losing our free will if it does not really exist?

    In the context of these debates, many feel God imposing his will on humans, is evil.
  3. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    19 Sep '17 12:512 edits
    Originally posted by @whodey
    For example, love is not really love without free will. If we take FMF's assertion that we do not have a choice in loving someone, is it really love? Can someone force you to love another?
    Why not just quote exactly what I said about "choosing" to love someone or "choosing" not to love someone, instead of dropping my name into your OP and attributing to me a whodey version of what I actually posted in that trademark intellectually dishonest way of yours?
  4. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
    Shetland cemetery
    Joined
    01 Oct '04
    Moves
    11848
    19 Sep '17 12:53
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I'm sure you're familiar with the doctrine of election, discussed by Paul, that makes it clear we don't have a choice. God chose some people for grace and chose others for wrath, according to the bible.

    [b]If no free will exists, then God is either forcing us to reject or accept him. This seems ludicrous. Why would God do such a thing? In fact, why ...[text shortened]... ist?


    In the context of these debates, many feel God imposing his will on humans, is evil.[/b]
    Paul makes it clear that we don't have a choice to do what?
  5. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    19 Sep '17 12:54
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I'm sure you're familiar with the doctrine of election, discussed by Paul, that makes it clear we don't have a choice. God chose some people for grace and chose others for wrath, according to the bible.

    [b]If no free will exists, then God is either forcing us to reject or accept him. This seems ludicrous. Why would God do such a thing? In fact, why ...[text shortened]... ist?


    In the context of these debates, many feel God imposing his will on humans, is evil.[/b]
    Does God know what choices we will make? Yes. Does that mean that free will does not exist? No.

    If God is all powerful he should be able to have a way to create us with free will, even though he knows in the end what it will be, which may be termed an "election".
  6. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    19 Sep '17 12:56
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Why not just quote exactly what I said about "choosing" to love someone or "choosing" not to love someone, instead of dropping my name into your OP and attributing to me a whodey version of what I actually posted in that trademark intellectually dishonest way of yours?
    Well it looks like Mr. Ad Homonym is back.

    Would you like to participate in this thread or continue to attack me once again?
  7. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    19 Sep '17 12:58
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Well it looks like Mr. Ad Homonym is back.

    Would you like to participate in this thread or continue to attack me once again?
    You cited me in your OP. Why not quote the piece on love and choice that you were referring to?
  8. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    19 Sep '17 13:00
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Does God know what choices we will make? Yes. Does that mean that free will does not exist? No.

    If God is all powerful he should be able to have a way to create us with free will, even though he knows in the end what it will be, which may be termed an "election".
    You completely missed what I said.

    Paul makes it clear we don't have a choice in salvation; that God decides who gets saved and who won't be saved. According to Paul, it is not up to humans to "choose" salvation.
  9. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
    Shetland cemetery
    Joined
    01 Oct '04
    Moves
    11848
    19 Sep '17 13:22
    Originally posted by @vivify
    You completely missed what I said.

    Paul makes it clear we don't have a choice in salvation; that God decides who gets saved and who won't be saved. According to Paul, it is not up to humans to "choose" salvation.
    So why would Jesus tell us to believe if we had no choice?
  10. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86381
    19 Sep '17 13:47
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I see the subject of free will coming up again and again on these forums. It seems to be the key for many ideologies and world views.

    For example, love is not really love without free will. If we take FMF's assertion that we do not have a choice in loving someone, is it really love? Can someone force you to love another? It seems to me that if two par ...[text shortened]... hrough man only bondage. God births us into the world free, which man later tries to take away.
    If you have free will, then why don't you exercise it by not being such a tool all the time.
  11. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86381
    19 Sep '17 13:53
    If God created us, then how is that free will?

    If God intervenes in some supernatural way, how is that impacting free will?

    If God says "thou shalt not...." doesn't that impact free will?

    If God creates a scenario which implies love me of I'll burn you alive for eternity, where is the free will in that?

    If God demands obedience, doesn't that impact free will?

    If we are driven by hormones to reproduce, doesn't that imply a lack of free will?
  12. Joined
    24 Apr '10
    Moves
    14580
    19 Sep '17 14:45
    Whodey
    "If no free will exists, then God is either forcing us to reject or accept him. This seems ludicrous. Why would God do such a thing?"

    For an atheist, the answer to this "I'm-a-12-year-old-and-this-is-deep" question is laughably easy.

    Other than that, tell me champ, do you think you became a Christian by choice?
  13. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    19 Sep '17 15:11
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    So why would Jesus tell us to believe if we had no choice?
    I don't know. Why does the bible say God doesn't change his mind, when he clearly has many times in the OT? Simple answer: the bible is flawed.
  14. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
    Shetland cemetery
    Joined
    01 Oct '04
    Moves
    11848
    19 Sep '17 17:22
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I don't know. Why does the bible say God doesn't change his mind, when he clearly has many times in the OT? Simple answer: the bible is flawed.
    Alternatively it could be your understanding of the Bible that is flawed.
  15. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    19 Sep '17 17:42
    Originally posted by @vivify
    You completely missed what I said.

    Paul makes it clear we don't have a choice in salvation; that God decides who gets saved and who won't be saved. According to Paul, it is not up to humans to "choose" salvation.
    Correct, God chooses those whom he knows will choose him.

    I realize how confusing it can get.
Back to Top