Free will

@philokalia said
I think you are just not understanding the depth of your own choices.

It is a common characteristic of the superstitious religionist ~ someone who believes in a contrived or codified take on supernatural causality ~ to think their doctrines and insights somehow have an elusive "depth" or cause an "understanding" problem for those outside their group. I believe both that my loss of faith was not a choice and that it has - and will have - no negative consequences.

@moonbus said
A long and thoughtful post. I can hardly reply to all of its points. But a few things spring to mind...

Thank you. And thank you for your thoughts.

@philokalia said
I do not think that there is some special mindset or temperament that makes hardcore empiricism the only thing that one is willing to believe.

"Hardcore empiricism" about religious beliefs is stuff like the number of people who say they hold those beliefs and the demography of each religion's adherents etc.

@fmf said
I just came to realize that I didn't believe the same things as you believe. I don't believe I have turned my back on any God. I simply don't subscribe to any brand of Christian ideology, including yours, that's all. This means that your "hellfire" threats and sonship's "hung out on chains" threats have no credibility and therefore have no coercive effect on me.

I've never threatened you with these things.

@fmf said
It is a common characteristic of the superstitious religionist ~ someone who believes in a contrived or codified take on supernatural causality ~ to think their doctrines and insights somehow have an elusive "depth" or cause an "understanding" problem for those outside their group. I believe both that my loss of faith was not a choice and that it has - and will have - no negative consequences.

It is reasonable to believe in God, correct?

Why have you, then, chosen that you cannot believe in God?

Surely, there is free will in this if it is not entirely irrational to believe in God.

That was the point of my post just above.

@philokalia said
I've never threatened you with these things.

You define me as being among "those who consciously reject God" and have insisted that they are "in jeopardy of hellfire". That's not a threat or "warning" then?

@philokalia said
It is reasonable to believe in God, correct?

Why have you, then, chosen that you cannot believe in God?

I have not "chosen" that I cannot believe in God. I am an implicit atheist and not an explicit one. I have realized, after a long process of weakening faith in the credibility of the Bible, that I am not a Christian. You sometimes give the strong impression that you don't read my posts.

@philokalia said
Surely, there is free will in this if it is not entirely irrational to believe in God.

I have never uttered a single word to the effect that it is "entirely irrational to believe in God" on this forum in all my years here.

@fmf said
You define me as being among "those who consciously reject God" and have insisted that they are "in jeopardy of hellfire". That's not a threat or "warning" then?

But was this ever phrased to you as if it was a threat? Of course not.

I have explained what the doctrine is, and what I believe, after being asked about it.

If someone asks "If I drink whiskey in downtown Mecca, will I be arrested?" and they reply "Yes," have they been threatened, or informed as to what the belief is about it?

@fmf said
I have never uttered a single word to the effect that it is "entirely irrational to believe in God" on this forum in all my years here.

Right... And that leads me back to the point that I was trying to make:

If it is rational to believe in God, why isn't belief in God also a choice?

I outlined how we cannot, say, believe in our hearts something that absolutely defies what is rational and what is right to us...

But surely, if there is a rational argument to something, even if it is against our inclination, is it not a choice for us to believe or disbelieve it?

Especially when there are so many ways to believe in God and affirm His Existence.

I don't get it how you think you are totally boxed in here to your atheism.

@philokalia said
But was this ever phrased to you as if it was a threat? Of course not.

I have explained what the doctrine is, and what I believe, after being asked about it.

If someone asks "If I drink whiskey in downtown Mecca, will I be arrested?" and they reply "Yes," have they been threatened, or informed as to what the belief is about it?

I am not doing anything wrong except in your superstitious mind. And you are predicting ludicrous and morally incoherent never-ending violence that you cannot prove is real. The law regarding alcohol consumption in Saudi Arabia is totally different. It is a poor analogy. This is the second daft-as-a-brush alcohol analogy you've attempted in the space of two days.

@philokalia said
If it is rational to believe in God, why isn't belief in God also a choice?

If it is a rational decision for you according to your terms of reference and your experiece, you go for it. Same goes for my Muslim neighbours and their religious beliefs. I have already explained how I see the process. I doubt that my Muslim neighbours could simply decide to stop having their religious beliefs or decide to adopt Hindu ones instead.

@philokalia said
I don't get it how you think you are totally boxed in here to your atheism.

I am not "boxed in". I have an open mind. If come across some claimed revelation of a creator god or gods that touches my inner human spirit and results in me, one day, coming to a realization that I believe in that particular revelation - and that it was not only credible but seemingly impossible to not believe - then I will acknowledge that I have returned to a belief in supernatural causality. I'm not "boxed in" at all.

@philokalia said
But surely, if there is a rational argument to something, even if it is against our inclination, is it not a choice for us to believe or disbelieve it?

I laid out why I don't think one can decide to be superstitious or decide to have religious faith or decide not to be superstitious or decide not to have religious faith in my OP. It's different from deciding to believe that the laws in Saudi Arabia forbid alcohol and such like.

@fmf said
I am not "boxed in". I have an open mind. If come across some claimed revelation of a creator god or gods that touches my inner human spirit and results in me, one day, coming to a realization that I believe in that particular revelation - and that it was not only credible but seemingly impossible to not believe - then I will acknowledge that I have returned to a belief in supernatural causality. I'm not "boxed in" at all.

How isn't this free will?

You can decide what you believe.