Originally posted by whodey I think there is a congruency between the two concepts of fate and free will. For example, it is your fate and my fate to die physically. Nothing can be done about this. However, what we do in the mean time can be up to our free will. In fact, we can choose certain actions which may either slow or speed up this process.
Indeed it is our fate to die, due to our nature as biological entities. However, I think it's quite possible that all we do during our lives is also fate (or rather some sort of quantum chance type mechanism) as well and that free will is simply a very powerful illusion bought about by the fact that we are concious of our decisions but unconcious of the variables leading to those decisions.
However, it is also a very important illusion since it feeds back into our behaviour, giving us the concept of 'responsibility' which, again, feeds back into our behaviour. The concepts of free will and responsibilty are some of the variables mentioned above that drive our decisions and actions.
Originally posted by whodey I think there is a congruency between the two concepts of fate and free will. For example, it is your fate and my fate to die physically. Nothing can be done about this. However, what we do in the mean time can be up to our free will. In fact, we can choose certain actions which may either slow or speed up this process.
From a physics point of view, the future can be predicted to a certain degree within the limits set by the uncertainty principle. Some systems are chaotic meaning that a small change in the starting conditions results in large changes soon after and are thus impossible to predict beyond a certain amount (the weather for example). However even chaotic systems have patterns so you can for example predict that it will rain at least once today somewhere on the earth.
Fate is another matter. Fate implies that even random events that cannot be determined using physics are nevertheless fixed in spacetime. Death is not fated. It is either predicable or not. As I am not aware of any insurmountable obstacles to infinite life I see know good reason to claim that death is guaranteed. The odds that you will die are so high however that it is as good as certain.
Originally posted by Penguin ...[b]everything has already be writtern down and pre-determined (fate) so I may think I have free will but everything is done with the will off Allah / God.
But at the end of the day when I die I will be judged on my actions...
Can you see the injustice implied by these two statements?
Originally posted by twhitehead From a physics point of view, the future can be predicted to a certain degree within the limits set by the uncertainty principle. Some systems are chaotic meaning that a small change in the starting conditions results in large changes soon after and are thus impossible to predict beyond a certain amount (the weather for example). However even chaotic syst ...[text shortened]... ath is guaranteed. The odds that you will die are so high however that it is as good as certain.
I believe that God has calculated our "destiny/fate". Even though our future has not taken place, I believe he has calculated it by including our free will and such. I see it as a scientist calculating how a rock will roll down a hill. If a scientist is good in physics, I would venture a guess he would have great success in calculating its velocity, and where it will roll, and where it will come to rest etc. I view God igniting the Big Bang in similar fashion as the scientist rolling the rock down the hill, only in much more complex terms which is beyond our comprehension. However, in terms of my free will, it is predicated on factors that are beyond my free will such as my very existence. I did not choose to exist, rather, I simply exist yet I have free will to choose how I exist to a certain exent despite this fact.
Originally posted by Penguin Indeed it is our fate to die, due to our nature as biological entities. However, I think it's quite possible that all we do during our lives is also fate (or rather some sort of quantum chance type mechanism) as well and that free will is simply a very powerful illusion bought about by the fact that we are concious of our decisions but unconcious of the vari ...[text shortened]... e some of the variables mentioned above that drive our decisions and actions.
--- Penguin.
But what seems real to me is reality. If this is so, reality is the real illusion, or at least from my perspective. Then again, if the reality of the situation creates an illusion, then the illusion of a situation could be said to have its roots in reality. In other words, you cannot divorce reality from illusion, they are one in the same. It is merely the perspective of the individual that is skewed.
Originally posted by whodey I believe that God has calculated our "destiny/fate". Even though our future has not taken place, I believe he has calculated it by including our free will and such. I see it as a scientist calculating how a rock will roll down a hill. If a scientist is good in physics, I would venture a guess he would have great success in calculating its velocity, and wh ...[text shortened]... simply exist yet I have free will to choose how I exist to a certain exent despite this fact.
It is impossible for scientists to accurately predict the future. This is due to some fundamental randomness in the workings of the physical world. So either God is outside time and knows the future or he knows what random choices will be made, or God does not know the future or God doesn't exist. He cannot calculate it as you claim.
Originally posted by RSMA1234 Thank you for your comments.
Yes I am Muslim. I'm not up to date with the current thinking on this but will try to answers in my limited knowledge.
question: if god is omniscient AND omnipotent, does he know the future?
Allah / God knows everything as this is pre-determined. Furture would suggest a single liner time line, Allah / God existings on ...[text shortened]... ld always try to be the best / honest etc I can and thus this was always Allahs / God's will.
Everything happens with the will of Allah / God, so yes you can say that. For example, very rarely do I come onto this type of thread, I normally read the debate or general threads. For some reason I decided the other day to read your thread. This you can argue was due to the will of Allah / God. So whilst I think in the short term I am in control and making may choices, this is already pre-defined that I will do this.RSMA
I'm sorry mate but this is nonsense! (I say this as a theist) How on earth can God's judgement be righteous and true if at any point anyone of us could say to him " I had no choice other than to sin , it was predestined and determined". God cannot hold us accountable for our actions unless we have real choice to do either one thing or another. If God knows that you have no choice in the matter then how can he judge?? He might as well hold the sun morally accountable for the fact it came up yesterday. It makes a farce out of judgement and it also means that he cannot give credit to anyone either. Are you really saying we are all robots?
Originally posted by twhitehead It is impossible for scientists to accurately predict the future. This is due to some fundamental randomness in the workings of the physical world. So either God is outside time and knows the future or he knows what random choices will be made, or God does not know the future or God doesn't exist. He cannot calculate it as you claim.
This is quite a claim. Just because science cannot calculate "randomness" in no way means that God cannot.
Originally posted by whodey This is quite a claim. Just because science cannot calculate "randomness" in no way means that God cannot.
if it's calculated, is it free?
a.k.a.
is god an observer/reactor?
or is god an actor/sustainer?
if god is immutible, can he "lay down" his attributes?
wouldn't that be changing who he is?
if he can change who he is, does that mean he can also change that other all sacred aspect of himself as "being love?"
Originally posted by Big Mac while the holacaust is tragic, and i don't want to diminish the atrocity of it and what Hitler, and those who blindly followed him, did, i am still interested in hearing a "free will christian" "defend" his position. while this is a fine example, it's a little charged for this debate. i fear that it would obscure the focus of my questions. in fact, having re ...[text shortened]... self, i'd like the "free will christian" (FWC) to defend it from the bible if possible.
There are many passages in the bible that tell us we are free to chose our path. THe bible tells us to chose wisely. I believe that God exists outside of time in an eternal now so to speak. He has a plan for the eventual salvation of mankind. Because God exists outside of time and is omnipotent he knows the choices that everyone has and will make. He has crafted his plan accordingly.
Originally posted by Ruppster1 There are many passages in the bible that tell us we are free to chose our path. THe bible tells us to chose wiswly. I believe that God exists outside of time in an enternal now so to speak. He has a plan for the eventual salvation of mankind. Because God exists outside of time and is omnipotent he knows the choices that everyone has and will make. He has crafted his plan accordingly.
therefore your god is an observer/reactor, not an initiator/actor.
choice = will? i don't think so. will is internal. choice seems to be influenced by what is without.
Originally posted by Big Mac therefore your god is an observer/reactor, not an initiator/actor.
choice = will? i don't think so. will is internal. choice seems to be influenced by what is without.
God initiated the whole thing by creating the Universe. I don't understand your distinction between choice and will please explain. To me they are the same.
Free Will?
12 Apr '07 13:08
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