Free Will?

Originally posted by Ruppster1
God initiated the whole thing by creating the Universe. I don't understand your distinction between choice and will please explain. To me they are the same.

fine point. let me refine my words and better define what i'm saying.

god has free will and choice. he can do what ever he chooses for what ever reason using any means he wants.
we cannot say the same of us or anybody else. believer or nonbliever.
we are confined by "reality." we are confined physically by certain physical laws and principals that seem to "govern" the universe. i.e. i can't fly of my own will power. i can choose to try.
now, as a xian, i believe that there was time that i lived before i was saved by god and now i live after (obviously). before god saved me, changed my heart, healed my condition, etc., i could only choose to sin against god. my will was in bondage to sin. even the good things i did were sinful because my motive what not honor and glorify god.
after becoming a believer, my will was conformed to be intune with god's, but i am still making choices based on the circumstance around me, but it god who works in me according to the bible to do his good pleasure.
so where is my free will, or freedom for that matter, except now my actions dictated by god more closely are aligned with my desires having a renewed heart and mind.
does that make sense?

Originally posted by Big Mac
fine point. let me refine my words and better define what i'm saying.

god has free will and choice. he can do what ever he chooses for what ever reason using any means he wants.
we cannot say the same of us or anybody else. believer or nonbliever.
we are confined by "reality." we are confined physically by certain physical laws and principals that seem ...[text shortened]... osely are aligned with my desires having a renewed heart and mind.
does that make sense?

It is true that we are constrained by reality, where God makes his own reality. I believe that I have free will whether I am a believer or not. I know in my heart the kinds of things that God wants me to do. I also know that I do not always do this things for many reasons, pride, depravity,laziness etc. But whatever I do, it is my choice. I also have to be accountable for my actions to God.

Originally posted by Ruppster1
It is true that we are constrained by reality, where God makes his own reality. I believe that I have free will whether I am a believer or not. I know in my heart the kinds of things that God wants me to do. I also know that I do not always do this things for many reasons, pride, depravity,laziness etc. But whatever I do, it is my choice. I also have to be accountable for my actions to God.

if god makes reality, then being constrained by reality is being constrained by god, no?

how do you know in your heart the things god wants you to do? are sure it's not bad chinese food from last night? perhaps the bible informs believers on the things they ought to do, or at least how they ought to respond to certain situations.

could it be that it appears that we have free will simply because we wrestle with decisions, while in reality, those actions are laid out beforehand, that we may walk in them?

Originally posted by Big Mac
if it's calculated, is it free?
a.k.a.
is god an observer/reactor?
or is god an actor/sustainer?

if god is immutible, can he "lay down" his attributes?
wouldn't that be changing who he is?
if he can change who he is, does that mean he can also change that other all sacred aspect of himself as "being love?"

Just because something is calculable in no way means that it is being manipulated by the person doing the calculating. It is beyond me how one can say that a God is all powerful and all knowing and can do anything but yet.........he can't give us free will.

Originally posted by whodey
Just because something is calculable in no way means that it is being manipulated by the person doing the calculating. It is beyond me how one can say that a God is all powerful and all knowing and can do anything but yet.........he can't give us free will.

Of course if the Christian God is indeed the true God, then there is no free will. According to the Christians' belief, God knows everything, He is everywhere, He knows what is in your heart/mind. He knows/sees the future, He created and designed everything!

The Christian God claims that he loves us all. Yet that love is not without condition. God's love is conditional. He will love us all, but only if we love him back. If you choose not to, then you are not welcomed into his kingdom. He says he lets you have your choice 'of not going back to him'; thus letting you have 'free will'. Well, I don't want to worship him, I don't feel like waking up first thing on Sundays to go to church and become a hypocrite. But I choose to go to heaven. Will I have what I want? Those are my choices, but I guess I am not going to get them, huh?

Why are we civilised humans cursed with the need to worship God? I wonder what would have happened if I were born amongst the cannibals in the deep jungles of the Amazon or Papua New Guinea? I was told that these people worship fire instead of God. Will they all go to hell for not worshipping God? Or are they excused somehow? Why?

How do we bring ourselves to have faith in a being who is liable to lose his temper and go on a killing spree -- drowning the entire human race, except for a handful?

There is no free will. You listen to God. You obey him. You MUST love him. Otherwise, you watch out!

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Of course if the Christian God is indeed the true God, then there is no free will. According to the Christians' belief, God knows everything, He is everywhere, He knows what is in your heart/mind. He knows/sees the future, He created and designed everything!

The Christian God claims that he loves us all. Yet that love is not without condition. God's love ...[text shortened]... free will. You listen to God. You obey him. You MUST love him. Otherwise, you watch out!

i don't agree with your definition of free will.

you say one MUST obey god in order to go to heaven, you call that not having free will.
i would call that simply a motivation.
i am saying that a person does not have the ability apart from already being made alive, in a xian sense of the word (having his heart "quickened" by the spirit), to choose to become a xian. one cannot save himself.

Originally posted by Big Mac
i don't agree with your definition of free will.

you say one MUST obey god in order to go to heaven, you call that not having free will.
i would call that simply a motivation.
i am saying that a person does not have the ability apart from already being made alive, in a xian sense of the word (having his heart "quickened" by the spirit), to choose to become a xian. one cannot save himself.

Whatever I am going to do tomorrow, the day after, next year, 10 years from now... all those have been fixed. There is nothing I can do about it. I wonder if Judas had a choice at all, whether to be a traitor or not.

Did God see me having a logical mind that would question his existence? Why do we have to pay for the sins of the 2 fools who were tricked by a serpent? What free will do we have? What could we have done about stopping those two from eating the apples?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Whatever I am going to do tomorrow, the day after, next year, 10 years from now... all those have been fixed. There is nothing I can do about it. I wonder if Judas had a choice at all, whether to be a traitor or not.

Did God see me having a logical mind that would question his existence? Why do we have to pay for the sins of the 2 fools who were tricked ...[text shortened]... t free will do we have? What could we have done about stopping those two from eating the apples?

according to me...

judas had no choice.

god did know you'd have a logical mind which questions his existence.

we're not paying for they're sins.

we don't have free will.

we couldn't have stopped them from eating the fruit. it's all part of the plan.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Of course if the Christian God is indeed the true God, then there is no free will. According to the Christians' belief, God knows everything, He is everywhere, He knows what is in your heart/mind. He knows/sees the future, He created and designed everything!

The Christian God claims that he loves us all. Yet that love is not without condition. God's love free will. You listen to God. You obey him. You MUST love him. Otherwise, you watch out!

I guess Bic Mac and I do not see eye to eye on the whole free will part. If one were not to have free will that would implicate God into causing us to sin, thus God would not be holy. This, however, is a far cry from the God of the Bible.

How one could create a being with free will is a mystery. Especially if one knows the outcome beforehand. If we were God perhaps we could understand how but we are not. Again, if he is capable of anything he is capable of this.

You see God as one who stops loving his creation if they disobey him or do not love him. However, the Bible says that God loved us first and sent his Son to us and that we love him because he first loved us even though we were not serving him to begin with. His love for us has always been the same and will always be the same. Granted, anger can enter the picture even though he loves us. Punishment does not negate love. In fact, you could argue that if you do not punish your children appropriatly you are not teaching them correctly and a loving parent would not choose to let their children run wild.

I know, I know, is it appropriate to destroy a city or the entire world except a few people? Well from the child's perspective the answer is no, no, no, leave me alone! However, from God's perspective I am sure it is much different. You see if sin is as destrucitve and corrossive as the Bible paints it as being it would behoove one to destroy such sin when needed in order to try and preserve creation from going over the edge, so to speak. Unfortunatly, this sometimes involves destroying the very people that you love. It is not the way I want it to be and I am sure that it is not the way God wants it to be because the Bible says that it is his will that NONE should perish, however, people do perish despite this fact. This is the reason Christ came into the world. He came to help seperate the sinner from the sin in order to destroy the sin yet preserve the sinner. This can be seen with the woman caught in adultry who was to be stoned under Mosaic law. Christ turned to the people and asked them whoever was without sin that they should cast the first stone. The crowd then all left being convicted of their own sin and he turned to the woman and told her that since they did not condemn her neither was he. He did not stop their, however. He then turned again to her and told her to go and sin no more. You see, if she had continued she would have ended up being destoyed, yet as we see, this was not God's will for her because he showed mercy upon her and delivered her from her sins.

I think we can both agree that if there be a God things are really, really, screwed up in the world, no? However, nothing can take away the pain and suffering etc. No theology is going to make you feel better about the way things are. If a loved one of mine dies it is going to be painful no matter when it happens or what the circumstances are. The only question is whether God is the cause of such problems and if there is no God then we can blame no one but ourselves anyway for the way the world is today. Agein, free will is the key to understanding such issues. If there is free will we are accountable for our actions and if there be no free will we can sit back and blame God for everything we do wrong. I know people like this who insist on not being accountable for their actions. They either blame their parents or the state etc. for their poor choices in life. No matter, they are accoutable for their actions. I find that life is not so much concerned with whether or not bad things happen to you as it is how you respond to such issues. Just ask the poor soul who just shot 30 some people in Virginia and then took his own life. I think he had a list of people to blame for his actions as well.

Originally posted by whodey
I guess Bic Mac and I do not see eye to eye on the whole free will part. If one were not to have free will that would implicate God into causing us to sin, thus God would not be holy. This, however, is a far cry from the God of the Bible.

How one could create a being with free will is a mystery. Especially if one knows the outcome beforehand. If we wer ...[text shortened]... nd then took his own life. I think he had a list of people to blame for his actions as well.

i would say that we agree on most every other point of doctrine though, at least to some degree.
i understand and appreciate your position. i do not agree, but i understand.

i do not think god causes us to sin. but, i do think because of our condition, that we could not help but to sin. it is our very nature to do so. therefore, god doesn't cause it. we follow our nature.

i also don't believe that we can change our own nature. it must be replaced before we can turn to god. only god can replace it. therefore before we turned to god, he already made us alive and changed our nature. now, we can't help but try not to sin. it is our nature.

god knowing the outcome prevents different outcomes. therefore, we are left with either a deistic/observer god, or one who orchestrates world affairs to get the outcome he desires.

the funny thing is, we could both quote scripture back and forth defending our positions. "CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve." "the mind of the king is like water in god's hands. he turns it where he wills." i mean we really could go back and forth. but that would accomplish so little. from your perspective god seems so much more loving by allowing us to follow our hearts to him. but from my perspective he is more loving by not taking any chances and contraining me to love him. though i admit that i am freely doing so. i still have no choice. it is my nature.

as for the NONE should perish, bit. honestly, that is one of the verses i have to DEAL WITH in order for me hold to my position. there are others that you must DEAL WITH in order to hold to your position. if we were humble, we would have to admit that we are looking through a glass darkly, trying to make the most sense out of what we see in the world around us and in the heavens above us. for me, i'm much more comfortable with a god who does not take chances. that way there is no way i can lose my salvation.

as to world affairs. i don't agree that free will is the key. i think god's sovereignty is the key. he has set the ends and therefore the means. no fear life or death. simply guaranteed victory, because the war is won already, and the daily battles are waged not by my might or for my glory. i am truly a beneficiary.

Originally posted by whodey
I guess Bic Mac and I do not see eye to eye on the whole free will part. If one were not to have free will that would implicate God into causing us to sin, thus God would not be holy. This, however, is a far cry from the God of the Bible.

How one could create a being with free will is a mystery. Especially if one knows the outcome beforehand. If we wer ...[text shortened]... nd then took his own life. I think he had a list of people to blame for his actions as well.

How one could create a being with free will is a mystery. Especially if one knows the outcome beforehand. If we were God perhaps we could understand how but we are not.WHODEY

No , I disagree. There is a real sense in which God really doesn't know whether you will choose him or not until you do choose him. His knowledge depends on your choice not the other way round. If your choice can be predicted beforehand (by God or anyone) then you cannot be free because the choice is a determined one. God has to be able to be surprised on some level otherwise we are not free. The really tricky bit is how can he know your choice but still be surprised as well. But if God was more than one person.....?

Originally posted by knightmeister
How one could create a being with free will is a mystery. Especially if one knows the outcome beforehand. If we were God perhaps we could understand how but we are not.WHODEY

No , I disagree. There is a real sense in which God really doesn't know whether you will choose him or not until you do choose him. His knowledge depends on your choice not the ...[text shortened]... n he know your choice but still be surprised as well. But if God was more than one person.....?

The way I see it, there is no element of surprise at all. God saw everything long before it happened. Apparently, according to the bible, the arrival of Jesus, his death, how he was betrayed, his resurrection etc, all were foretold long before the events actually happened. To me, those events were predetermined.

There was nothing Judas could have done. He was destined to be the traitor long before he was born. There was no way that God could have been surprised by the fact that he eventually turned out to be a traitor. And yet, if one were to claim the accounts of the bible were only God's predictions, then are we to assume that his predictions of the future may be wrong? Maybe Jesus will not come again?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
The way I see it, there is no element of surprise at all. God saw everything long before it happened. Apparently, according to the bible, the arrival of Jesus, his death, how he was betrayed, his resurrection etc, all were foretold long before the events actually happened. To me, those events were predetermined.

There was nothing Judas could have done. ...[text shortened]... we to assume that his predictions of the future may be wrong? Maybe Jesus will not come again?

excellent points. i have not arguments against any of them.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
The way I see it, there is no element of surprise at all. God saw everything long before it happened. Apparently, according to the bible, the arrival of Jesus, his death, how he was betrayed, his resurrection etc, all were foretold long before the events actually happened. To me, those events were predetermined.

There was nothing Judas could have done. ...[text shortened]... we to assume that his predictions of the future may be wrong? Maybe Jesus will not come again?

The way I see it, there is no element of surprise at all. God saw everything long before it happened.

...this is where you misunderstand. God saw it AS it was happening. It's all NOW for him. Jesus can be placed on our timeline though and for him there can be surprises. However , the phrase "long before it happened" have no meaning in eternity. Do you really think God has to wait to find out if his "predictions" of the future are right. He's already watched you die and has spent eternity doing it. You imagine God looks "into the future" , how bizarre? You think he "predicts" the future ??? No , is IN the future watching the choices we make. For example , when I was born he watched me come out but he was also watching me write this post. But as he is watching me type he is also watching me being born and dying (+ everything else I will ever do). But that does not make it predetermined , it just means he's good at stepping outside of time.

Originally posted by knightmeister
...this is where you misunderstand.

You're being ironic, right?