1. RDU NC
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    03 Apr '07 18:06
    So many of you talk of our free will. Most of those whom I've noticing doing this are those claiming to be Christian.
    Age old question...
    If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?
    a.k.a.
    How can one reconcile the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility?
  2. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:24
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    So many of you talk of our free will. Most of those whom I've noticing doing this are those claiming to be Christian.
    Age old question...
    If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?
    a.k.a.
    How can one reconcile the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility?
    Surely this is relatively easy. If God chooses to allow man to have responsibility then his sovereignty is still intact because he has chosen it and can get it back anytime he wants to. Is America not the world's superpower because it chooses not to nuke all it's enemies? It is still the superpower and everyone knows it. Is a king lacking in sovereignty if he leases some land to a nobleman? Does he stop being the king? Does a father become less intelligent overnight because he lets his son win at chess sometimes?

    Saying that God chooses not to make us robots is very different from saying that he can't control what we do because of free will. Temporary voluntary suspension of omnipotence is not the same as saying God is incapacitated somehow.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Apr '07 18:29
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    So many of you talk of our free will. Most of those whom I've noticing doing this are those claiming to be Christian.
    Age old question...
    If there is an "Omni-Everything" God (as Scotty has called him), how can there be such a thing as free will, especially with no qualifying statements?
    a.k.a.
    How can one reconcile the sovereignty of God and man's responsibility?
    Since I seem to be able to make choices, I do not find strict determinism to be a very reasonable account. However, if it was, how would I know?

    I probably hold to what is called a “compatibilist” account of “free will.” My ability to choose is not unconstrained or unconditioned by psychological or environmental factors.

    I don’t believe in an “omni-everything” being. I am a manifestation of the Brahman/Tao, from which my existence arose, in which it is, and of which I am. The nature of my consciousness is just part of that. It needs no particular explanation.

    Then, I am apparently not your target audience here...

    But—I found your question about how could human beings possibly freely choose “free will” to be an insightful one. If such is given by an omni-God, then one would assume that such a God has at least some responsibility for the consequences...
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Apr '07 18:313 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Surely this is relatively easy. If God chooses to allow man to have responsibility then his sovereignty is still intact because he has chosen it and can get it back anytime he wants to. Is America not the world's superpower because it chooses not to nuke all it's enemies? It is still the superpower and everyone knows it. Is a king lacking in sovereign y voluntary suspension of omnipotence is not the same as saying God is incapacitated somehow.
    A king does not *know* the thoughts of his subjects
    A president does not *know* the intentions of his people
    A father does not *know* all moves his child is considering

    Your god however knows all such things and apparantly holds people responsible for actions he knows they shall commit long before the perpetrator is aware of his intention or desire to commit such acts. Such people are screwed at the offset... what a nice god!

    Either that or your god wouldn't be as much the supreme deity you think it should be.

    Or...there is such a thing as free will but not necessarily a god
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:41
    Originally posted by Agerg
    A king does not *know* the thoughts of his subjects
    A president does not *know* the intentions of his people
    A father does not *know* all moves his child is considering

    Your god however knows all such things and apparantly holds people responsible for actions he knows they shall commit long before the perpetrator is aware of his intention or desire to com ...[text shortened]... ty you think it should be.

    Or...there is such a thing as free will but not necessarily a god
    Your god however knows all such things and apparantly holds people responsible for actions he knows they shall commit long before the perpetrator is aware of his intention or desire to commit such acts.AGERG

    But you left out a bit. He also *knows* what choices we are faced with and what we can bear. So he knows if we have made an evil choice or good choice and also knows how capable we were of not doing it. However , your argument would still hold a lot of water even then. God is responsible and must carry the can for the evil/sin in the world. It is for him to bear on his shoulders. you are right. Can you remember how he did that? Do I really need to give you a clue?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:42
    Originally posted by Agerg
    A king does not *know* the thoughts of his subjects
    A president does not *know* the intentions of his people
    A father does not *know* all moves his child is considering

    Your god however knows all such things and apparantly holds people responsible for actions he knows they shall commit long before the perpetrator is aware of his intention or desire to com ...[text shortened]... ty you think it should be.

    Or...there is such a thing as free will but not necessarily a god
    Such people are screwed at the offset... what a nice god! AGERG

    ....ever heard of Jesus and all that stuff about salvation or did you edit that bit out of your mind when writing this?
  7. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Apr '07 18:451 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Such people are screwed at the offset... what a nice god! AGERG

    ....ever heard of Jesus and all that stuff about salvation or did you edit that bit out of your mind when writing this?
    so Hitler (who in your definition of God was predetermined to be the person who would seek to exterminate all the jews) was saved by Jesus?

    Or did Hitler trick God? did Hitler pull the wool over God's eyes and make him think he wasn't actually *that* evil???
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:46
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Since I seem to be able to make choices, I do not find strict determinism to be a very reasonable account. However, if it was, how would I know?

    I probably hold to what is called a “compatibilist” account of “free will.” My ability to choose is not unconstrained or unconditioned by psychological or environmental factors.

    I don’t believe in an “omni-e ...[text shortened]... , then one would assume that such a God has at least some responsibility for the consequences...
    But—I found your question about how could human beings possibly freely choose “free will” to be an insightful one. If such is given by an omni-God, then one would assume that such a God has at least some responsibility for the consequences...VISTED

    I would have thought after 45 years of it you might have figured out how God DID infact take responsibility for the consequences. Did the central pivotal doctrine of the entire Christian faith pass you by?
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:53
    Originally posted by Agerg
    so Hitler (who in your definition of God was predetermined to be the person who would seek to exterminate all the jews) was saved by Jesus?

    Or did Hitler trick God? did Hitler pull the wool over God's eyes and make him think he wasn't actually *that* evil???
    Hitler was not predetermined to do what he did , he made a series of choices. God was able to know what Hitler would do with his life because he is not bound by time. He knew after Hitler had done it and not before . To say he knew "before" makes no sense because that would place a non-temporal eternal God solely on our timeline. But yes Jesus saved Hitler , but the question is did Hitler accept the salvation? Apparently not by his actions , but don't rule it out.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Apr '07 18:54
    Originally posted by Agerg
    so Hitler (who in your definition of God was predetermined to be the person who would seek to exterminate all the jews) was saved by Jesus?

    Or did Hitler trick God? did Hitler pull the wool over God's eyes and make him think he wasn't actually *that* evil???
    Or did Hitler trick God? did Hitler pull the wool over God's eyes and make him think he wasn't actually *that* evil???


    How would he do that?
  11. RDU NC
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    03 Apr '07 19:01
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Hitler was not predetermined to do what he did , he made a series of choices. God was able to know what Hitler would do with his life because he is not bound by time. He knew after Hitler had done it and not before . To say he knew "before" makes no sense because that would place a non-temporal eternal God solely on our timeline. But yes Jesus saved Hi ...[text shortened]... on is did Hitler accept the salvation? Apparently not by his actions , but don't rule it out.
    isn't "after" putting a time-constraint on god?
    if he's eternal, didn't he always know?
    if not, has he always been omniscient?
    or does omniscience simply mean knowing what happened?
    if so, could i be omniscient if i read enough news papers?
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Apr '07 19:042 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Hitler was not predetermined to do what he did , he made a series of choices. God was able to know what Hitler would do with his life because he is not bound by time. He knew after Hitler had done it and not before . To say he knew "before" makes no sense because that would place a non-temporal eternal God solely on our timeline. But yes Jesus saved Hi ...[text shortened]... on is did Hitler accept the salvation? Apparently not by his actions , but don't rule it out.
    Well you say this god of yours isn't bound by time...I say that midjagends aren't bound by time neither...I'm working on a proof of this statement!!!

    Your all knowing God would know what choices Hitler would make! Your god knew that a shed-load of Jews were going to suffer (or did suffer as you hold that God is external to time and stuff) because of that fiend! but some poor dude back in antiquity who got nailed to a cross is the reason why he had the chance of an equal share of paradise as the people who died horrifically painful deaths because of him?

    What was in it for the jews?

    Let me give you a hint of my own KM...I find that the gods and concepts that have been defined to you and others via religion to be completely and totally ridiculous.
  13. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Apr '07 19:11
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    But—I found your question about how could human beings possibly freely choose “free will” to be an insightful one. If such is given by an omni-God, then one would assume that such a God has at least some responsibility for the consequences...VISTED

    I would have thought after 45 years of it you might have figured out how God DID infact take responsib ...[text shortened]... or the consequences. Did the central pivotal doctrine of the entire Christian faith pass you by?
    Yes, but Christianity often seems to be subject to a reduction ad absurdum here—

    (1) As a result of the “fall,” Adam acquired an ontological “sin nature” (original in).

    (2) This ontological sinfulness (and the guilt that merits just punishment) is inherited by all subsequent humans (via procreation? According to Augustine, anyway...).

    (3) This ontological sinfulness/guilt is assumed by Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) and destroyed (Rom. 6:6), or removed (Heb. 9:26); [see also John 1:29, Rom. 6:22, Rom. 8:2, and 2 Cor. 5:21].

    But—

    (4) Humans still inherit and bear this ontological sinfulness/guilt.

    ________________________________

    Aside from the fact that God took a good time about it (last resort?), did his assuming the responsibility once and for all heal human sinfulness?

    Did God make the sacrifice because he realized he actually bore responsibility for the whole fiasco? Or does God’s authority (sovereignty) not entail responsibility.

    Yes, I am familiar with the theology (from various angles—including, as I have expressed on here, the juridical view of soteriology versus the healing view of soteriology). Are you familiar with Euthyphro’s Dilemma?
  14. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Apr '07 19:121 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Or did Hitler trick God? did Hitler pull the wool over God's eyes and make him think he wasn't actually *that* evil???


    How would he do that?
    How would he do that?

    This statement suggests that the idea that God could not have known the abominations that would take place as a result of his creation, the anguish, torment, and pain he would inflict on these blessed creatures of God...is a silly idea

    Therefore your god is twisted!
  15. RDU NC
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    03 Apr '07 20:25
    while the holacaust is tragic, and i don't want to diminish the atrocity of it and what Hitler, and those who blindly followed him, did, i am still interested in hearing a "free will christian" "defend" his position. while this is a fine example, it's a little charged for this debate. i fear that it would obscure the focus of my questions. in fact, having read the bible a little myself, i'd like the "free will christian" (FWC) to defend it from the bible if possible.
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