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Had you been born in Syria (for example) do you think it more likely you would now be a Muslim and have opened your heart to Allah?
Perhaps. But I have yet to met a Moslem who admits to knowing Allah. I'm sorry, I have asked and it is not the same with their faith as with Jesus Christ.
Now they may say they know how to fast.
They may say they know how to pray.
They may say they know which direction to face when praying.
They man say they know which foods not to eat.
They may say they know how many times a day they should bow and pray.
When I ask them "Do you know God?"
This is usually a thought foreign to them.
You obey the Quran but you don't know God personally to the Moslem.
To be fair, there are confessed Christians who have the same attitude.
They know religion.
They are less eager to say they know Jesus.
Now, because growing up in a place I would be more likely to learn about this or that says nothing about the truthfulness or falsity of this or that.
To say that that was a major factor might be a genetic fallacy.
You may be more prone to hear about atheism where you were brought up.
That in itself does not determine the truth or falsity of atheism.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidLate to the party here, but yes this is clearly a paradox that is difficult to explain. We believe what we believe. Belief does not seem like a choice, like picking a career or a home. It seems to happen at a sub-conscious level.
Scenario 3: As a Christian, you have a difficult life but decide to tolerate your mortal struggles in the belief that you will be rewarded in eternity. Only God doesn't exist and your only chance of reward was in the mortal life you didn't make the most of.
As an aside, should an atheist who genuinely does not believe in God choose to believe in Him to hedge their bets and is such a thing even possible?
Choosing to believe in Him to hedge our bets is not possible in my opinion.
If there is a God in the biblical sense, one of the basic tenants is that He is all-knowing. God knew my heart before I was born. God knew I would be agnostic. God was willing to create a life without faith. Perhaps the faith comes later - I would not be opposed to that.
Churches and Christians are a large part of my life and my life would be much the poorer without both. I never argue faith or beliefs with my Christian friends, because I don't think they have a choice anymore than I do.
As a side note I was full-immersion baptized as an adult in Lake Superior by a close friend who was a Lutheran pastor. It brought him great joy. He is of the theory I am a late bloomer and my faith will come in time. Maybe he is right.
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@they saidI find the concept of an all-knowing god thoroughly abhorrent. The Holocaust, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, paedophile murderers, child cancer... all part of the plan? Nah, I can't sign up for that.
Late to the party here, but yes this is clearly a paradox that is difficult to explain. We believe what we believe. Belief does not seem like a choice, like picking a career or a home. It seems to happen at a sub-conscious level.
Choosing to believe in Him to hedge our bets is not possible in my opinion.
If there is a God in the biblical sense, one of the basic tenants ...[text shortened]... reat joy. He is of the theory I am a late bloomer and my faith will come in time. Maybe he is right.
Also, (sorry can't help myself) the word you're after is tenets. Tenants pay rent.
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I find the concept of an all-knowing god thoroughly abhorrent. The Holocaust, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, paedophile murderers, child cancer... all part of the plan? Nah, I can't sign up for that.
Would you be agreeable to God starting the elimination of evil doers with you at the head of the line?
So if God were to stop all such evil acts today in let us say 2 hours.
Would you expect that you would be at the very END of the line or not in line at all?
Say God stops in its tracks any evil doing today. Is there any reason why
He should not start with you? Or do you think automatically - "No. I am quite alright. Start with these OTHER people over there. Leave me out of the whole matter because I am quite alright." ?
@avalanchethecat saidMy tenants don't pay rent.
Also, (sorry can't help myself) the word you're after is tenets. Tenants pay rent.
ðŸ˜
@sonship saidAre there not degrees of evil? Does your God view the mass murderer no differently than the pickpocket?
@avalanchethecatI find the concept of an all-knowing god thoroughly abhorrent. The Holocaust, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, paedophile murderers, child cancer... all part of the plan? Nah, I can't sign up for that.
Would you be agreeable to God starting the elimination of evil doers with you at the head of the line?
So if God were to stop all su ...[text shortened]... with these OTHER people over there. Leave me out of the whole matter because I am quite alright." ?
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Are there not degrees of evil? Does your God view the mass murderer no differently than the pickpocket?
I am not suppose to quote scripture with avalanche but judgment starts with those who are suppose to know better. So He says judgment starts at the house of God.
Yes, of course there are more serious crimes. And there are less serious crimes.
I put the question to you too.
If you say "God if you are there, You have to do something about all these evil doers. Do Your job! "
Where would you like to be in the line up? Last? Not there at all?
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Does your God view the mass murderer no differently than the pickpocket?
I have given this illustration before.
Let's say you have a Vase Shop, all fine vases of fine porcelain with thousands of vases. But an earthquake has happened and every single vase has been broken, shattered, split open with pieces lying all over the floor.
Now some are in a hundred broken pieces, sixty broken pieces, twenty broken pieces and under ten pieces.
Some are busted up into only two pieces.
But they are ALL broken.
The one broken into sixty pieces looks over to the one broken into a hundred pieces and feels very fortunate. "I am only busted into sixty fragments here and I am better off then that one broken into a hundred pieces. "
Maybe the ones broken into only TWO nice fragments on the floor feel they are superior to the others broken into more than two pieces. But they are all destroyed. They are all damaged.
This is the situation with sinful men and women.
We may consider some are better off and some are worse off.
But to God we are all shattered, damaged, corrupted, rendered unfunctional, made unattractive, marred by sin.
All need repair.
@sonship saidAnother pile of unbiblical nonsense. All people are damaged and supposedly sinful only because of inherited or imputed sin which came from the sin of Adam and Eve, All people do not need fixing and repair The bible is clear about certain things which are relevant but which you deliberately fail to mention because it runs contrary to your doctrine of doing nothing and getting eternal life on the basis of mouth worship :Does your God view the mass murderer no differently than the pickpocket?
I have given this illustration before.
Let's say you have a Vase Shop, all fine vases of fine porcelain with thousands of vases. But an earthquake has happened and every single vase has been broken, shattered, split open with pieces lying all over the floor.
Now some are in a hun ...[text shortened]... d, damaged, corrupted, rendered unfunctional, made unattractive, marred by sin.
All need repair.
- that there are many described as perfect in the bible
- that there are many called righteous in the bible
- there are many who pleased God.
- there are even some whose sins are unforgiveable.
All of this nonsense you write is a product of your churches false doctrines and the total failure to understand the purpose of the death of Christ.
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@sonship saidWhy does this hypothetical omniscient, omnipotent god need to eliminate evil doers? And who is the evil-doer responsible for a child's terminal condition anyway? But sure, if it's going to improve the world, I'm agreeable to being eliminated.
@avalanchethecatI find the concept of an all-knowing god thoroughly abhorrent. The Holocaust, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, paedophile murderers, child cancer... all part of the plan? Nah, I can't sign up for that.
Would you be agreeable to God starting the elimination of evil doers with you at the head of the line?
So if God were to stop all su ...[text shortened]... with these OTHER people over there. Leave me out of the whole matter because I am quite alright." ?
@avalanchethecat saidGod hates sinners and evildoers. God loves the righteous. All people are frail and eventually die. It no big deal. What is important is what happens after death.
Why does this hypothetical omniscient, omnipotent god need to eliminate evil doers? And who is the evil-doer responsible for a child's terminal condition anyway? But sure, if it's going to improve the world, I'm agreeable to being eliminated.
Its shocking to me to hear that you need someone to explain to you how and why and world without sin is an improvement.
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@rajk999 saidDo I sound so naive? What I am saying is that I do not find this version of 'god' to be in any way credible given the nature of our existence. I don't know if there is a god or not, but I'm quite convinced if there is that it is not the god of the bible. Obviously that's just my personal opinion, and is in no way meant to denigrate your beliefs.
God hates sinners and evildoers. God loves the righteous. All people are frail and eventually die. It no big deal. What is important is what happens after death.
Its shocking to me to hear that you need someone to explain to you how and why and world without sin is an improvement.
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Why does this hypothetical omniscient, omnipotent god need to eliminate evil doers?
He can and will eliminate evil. Yet He desires not to "eliminate" the one He loves but save and transform that one for eternal life.
Think of this as removing leeches clinging within and without to a person, making his life miserable. God desires to eliminate the parasites but render healthy and even glorious the one who has become a host to the monsters.
The question of WHY is there the need for the dealing with evil to begin with if God is God, is a hard one. It is like asking why isn't it right now the New Jerusalem with the new heaven and new earth in which righteousness prevails and there is no death?
In a single post or even many posts I might not give a satisfactory answer to that. But I could say we see in the Bible WHERE history is GOING. And there is no doubt that this linear journey through time has its destination, climax, and final eternal arrival AT the state for an enumerable and huge assembly of those who have lived.
And I will stop just there in this post.
And who is the evil-doer responsible for a child's terminal condition anyway?
In a short post of few words I will not try to answer that completely.
But it is perhaps the very first question I asked as a Bible reader - "If man was put in a paradise to begin with WHERE did this enemy of God and man, lying and deceiving and bringing death come from?"
Then I notice Adam was told to guard the garden.
Everything was very good as long as Adam obeyed to guard the garden of Eden.
Instead of being on guard he came under the influence of that which he was told to guard against.
The rest is history. But it is a history that includes the salvation of the Son of God sent to seek what was lost.
But sure, if it's going to improve the world, I'm agreeable to being eliminated.
Don't mistake yourself for the person you would like to think you'd be.
We all are really just for our own skin, unless Christ can come in and change the whole way we think.
Improve a world in which you are about to exit? I don't think you could do it so easily. Besides, God does not want you to go away. He wants to love you for eternity as a forgiven, saved, sanctified, transformed, resurrected, conformed to His image son of God.