@FMF
Then if it is harmless enough why do you chase after my posts?
And your little critique I found one sided. It selected only that which you find most negative.
@sonship saidI'm not saying there isn't a god, there may be, I don't know.
@avalanchethecatCan you try to make a case without recourse to scripture? I don't regard the bible as reliable source material.
If there is no God from where comes your reference point of what is evil and what is good? You want me to trust your arbitrary preference as some reliable universal standard.
Why should we trust your arbitrary unenforceable ultimate standard anymore than
what Hitler's or Stalin's arbitrary preferences were?
I think that I measure good and evil by the intent and consequences of a person's actions and decisions on those affected by a given deed. I accept that it's possible that this is a rationalisation, and that morals and ethics are granted by some higher being, but since they require studying and undersanding to develop, I can't really see any benefit in arguing the case either way. It's certainly not necessary to believe in your god in order to be a good person, and I will laugh in the face of anyone who claims that's not the case.
@sonship saidI don't ignore it. I accord it all the weight I feel it deserves as a collection of ancient wisdom and learning. I respect the regard in which you hold it, but I don't share it. I'm much more interested in what you yourself have to say than in what the bible says, that's why I ask you not to quote it to me.
@FMFYour assertions rooted in your beliefs in supernatural beings and rewards and punishments are all unenforceable too.
Only if I totally ignore the record of the New Testament the way avalanche desires to do at the moment.
@sonship saidThat's nonsense. Here's some more nonsense:
@avalanchethecatCan you try to make a case without recourse to scripture? I don't regard the bible as reliable source material.
You'll find plenty of voices here to come in and assist you.
But I would like to hear your own answer and not assume they answer for you.
Which of these premises do you disagree with?
1.) If God exists then ob ...[text shortened]... duties do exist.
3.) Therefore God exists.
Which one/s of these steps do you think are wrong?
1) If god doesn't exist people would have to learn moral obligations and duties in order to live in groups.
2) People have learned to live in groups
3) Therefore god doesn't exist.
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It's certainly not necessary to believe in your god in order to be a good person, and I will laugh in the face of anyone who claims that's not the case.
I don't say you have to believe in God to be a good person.
I think I would say that if there is no ultimate obligation and duty your "good" is not with any truly objective foundation.
The Third Reich was "good" to the storm troopers and the Hitler Youth.
You may say "But my determination of the good is really good and the Hitler Youth were not."
Why is yours the real McCoy and theirs below what is truly right?
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@sonship saidIf morals and ethics are god-given, how is it that the Third Reich and the Hitler Youth even existed? I think your points here are harder for your perspective to accomodate than mine.
@avalanchethecatIt's certainly not necessary to believe in your god in order to be a good person, and I will laugh in the face of anyone who claims that's not the case.
I don't say you have to believe in God to be a good person.
I think I would say that if there is no ultimate obligation and duty your "good" is not with any truly objective fou ...[text shortened]... Hitler Youth were not."
Why is yours the real McCoy and theirs below what is truly right?
As to which morality is better, well I would say the one which causes the least suffering. That seems self-evident to me, and perhaps that assessment is god-given, I don't know.
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If morals and ethics are god-given, how is it that the Third Reich and the Hitler Youth even existed?
Without revelation we could not know.
And you don't want to listen to anything in the revelation of the Holy Bible.
Apart from the revelation of the Bible, I seriously doubt that we would have any idea human behavior could be so evil.
You know WHAT is good to do.
You agree often what is good to do.
You even delight to do that good.
But SOMETHING drags you down and compels you often to do what you end up hating that you did.
I know that this is your experience as it is mine.
Apart from the revelation of the Bible (which you wish to shut, discard, and ignore) we wouldn't know WHY this is so.
That is - The good that our conscience agrees with we too often cannot perform.
And the evil that our conscience does not agree with we end up doing anyway.
But you don't want to hear anything from the Bible about the sin nature being injected into man.
@sonship saidI disagree. I think we are developing an impressive understanding of why people do bad things. I see no evidence that it is connected to religious inclination.
@avalanchethecatIf morals and ethics are god-given, how is it that the Third Reich and the Hitler Youth even existed?
Without revelation we could not know.
And you don't want to listen to anything in the revelation of the Holy Bible.
Apart from the revelation of the Bible, I seriously doubt that we would have any idea human behavior could be ...[text shortened]... But you don't want to hear anything from the Bible about the sin nature being injected into man.
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I disagree. I think we are developing an impressive understanding of why people do bad things. I see no evidence that it is connected to religious inclination.
"Religious inclination" is your catch phrase.
To me that sounds like describing gravity as a "science inclination".
But if we have a good understanding of why it should be that our conscience is not strong enough to determine that we always do what it knows is best, why is that? Don't speak in terms of what it isn't.
What is the problem?
@sonship saidI bet you fiver you can't find another post by me where I used the term 'religious inclination'. So no, not a 'catch-phrase'.
@avalanchethecatI disagree. I think we are developing an impressive understanding of why people do bad things. I see no evidence that it is connected to religious inclination.
"Religious inclination" is your catch phrase.
To me that sounds like describing gravity as a "science inclination".
But if we have a good understanding of why it should be ...[text shortened]... knows is best, why is that? Don't speak in terms of what it isn't.
What is the problem?
The mind is a complex thing. The subjective experience of consciousness gives one the impression that it is much more simple than it actually is. There are drives and motivations under the surface that we may never even become aware of. The media, advertisers and governments make use these uncertainties to try to control us, and they do a much better job than they did when they worked with models similar to yours.
@mchill saidI don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but the problem with your OP is that there are more than 2 scenarios.
I've been reading posts of many non believers here for some time. You folks seem like a pretty "facts and logic" based group, so try to wrap your heads around this:
Scenario #1 I'm a Christian, and one day I die. My faith was misplaced, there is no God, and I'm simply dead - end of story.
Scenario #2 One of you is a non believer, one day you die, only to find all that ...[text shortened]... you spend a very, very long time regretting your views.
Do you like to gamble? Good Luck! 😉
Scenario #3: You live as a devout Christian, die and find that you've been serving the wrong god, and you go to that religion's version of hell for all eternity, because you rejected that religion as the truth.
How do you respond to this?
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The mind is a complex thing. The subjective experience of consciousness gives one the impression that it is much more simple than it actually is. There are drives and motivations under the surface that we may never even become aware of. The media, advertisers and governments make use these uncertainties to try to control us, and they do a much better job than they did when they worked with models similar to yours.
I didn't get in this reply what I sought.
I see you say the mind is complex.
I see you say with consciousness there is more than meets the eye.
Okay with both statements.
But I asked why CONSCIENCE not consciousness, does not have to power to regulate our behavior to resist the evil we disagree with or to carry out the good we agree with.
You take the Bible off the table, not wanting to hear what it would say.
You say we have a "good understanding" of this dilemma without God's book (which you don't trust at all).
But in the end here at least I just see that we can be manipulated by others and should be skeptical of this. "Be skeptical of a lot of people" seems to be your end point.
But I didn't get WHY it should be that they are able to have us go against conscience anyway. I don't think you spoke directly to the question I had.
We have a good understanding but it is difficult to explain? Is that what you meant?
@sonship saidNo, I meant exactly what I said. The science of human psychology is a vast field and incorporates different approaches and opinions. You want me to explain the whole subject to you? It's not like there's just one book you know. Further, there are still many questions and areas of uncertainty, not to mention entire concepts and processes about which we as yet have very little understanding and or consensus. The biblical view of good and evil is not a popular or indeed useful part of it, however.
@avalanchethecat
[quote] The mind is a complex thing. The subjective experience of consciousness gives one the impression that it is much more simple than it actually is. There are drives and motivations under the surface that we may never even become aware of. The media, advertisers and governments make use these uncertainties to try to control us, and they do a much better ...[text shortened]... estion I had.
We have a good understanding but it is difficult to explain? Is that what you meant?
And you should be sceptical of a lot of people. They lie, for various reasons, often with your best interest as the foremost concern.
If you are interested in understanding how people can be so easily manipulated, I recommend "The Century of Self" (2002), a series of films by Adam Curtis. It's by no means a complete grounding, but it will give you some insight into the current state of the subject.