Originally posted by OdBodA less obvious manifestation may be helping others, but this satisfies a need inside yourself .
I think that being "self centred" is just a very obvious manifestation of psychological egoism. A less obvious manifestation may be helping others, but this satisfies a need inside yourself . What our deeper needs are, can be very different from each other,and almost never understood fully by their owners . The need for the individual to express itself is egot ...[text shortened]... of "self contentedness" at a subconscious level, which does look like psychological egoism.
Even if true, this certainly does not suffice to support psychological egoism. The question of psychological egoism has to do with what compromises the actual object of a motivation. It holds, basically, that the object of motivation is always something concerned with one's own welfare. So, to support psychological egoism, what you would need to show in such a case is that this inner "need" is concerned materially with one's own welfare. Basically, you would need to show that the helping of others nevertheless always proceeds through motivations that are at bottom concerned with the helper's own welfare. Problem is, that is simply false, as the empirical data shows. Human motivations are often non-egoistic.
Actually, if you want to know some of my views on this (which give plenty of counter-argument and counter-examples to the issues you raise here), I had a somewhat in-depth discussion on these very topics with Zahlanzi in this old thread (the discussion starts on page 4 and runs through page 6):
Thread 124149
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOriginally posted by ThinkOfOne
Seems like an ironic affirmation from someone who seems to be touting 'Genuine Human Happiness" as a reason for adopting his belief system.
"Seems like only an EXTREMELY self-centered individual would be unable conceive of any desires that are not self-centered."
"Bingo!" (gb)
"Seems like an ironic affirmation from someone who seems to be touting 'Genuine Human Happiness"
as a reason for adopting his belief system." (ThinkOfOne)
Affirms the blindness and confusion and futility self-centered individuals experience in their frantic search
for escape from the horrors that reside in their eternal souls.
.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Blindness" and "confusion" and "futility" and "frantic" and "horrors". I am sorry if this means your own life is not a happy one. But on whose behalf do you claim to be speaking, apart from yourself?
Affirms the blindness and confusion and futility self-centered individuals experience in their frantic search
for escape from the horrors that reside in their eternal souls.
.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you really not understand that the desire for ones own 'Genuine Human Happiness' is self-centered in and of itself? Hence the irony?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
"Seems like only an EXTREMELY self-centered individual would be unable conceive of any desires that are not self-centered."
"Bingo!" (gb)
"Seems like an ironic affirmation from someone who seems to be touting 'Genuine Human Happiness"
as a reason for adopting his belief system." (ThinkOfOne)
Affirms the blind ...[text shortened]... heir frantic search
for escape from the horrors that reside in their eternal souls.
.
I believe many studies have shown that the greatest happiness is achieved through empathy ie charitable work. However, I would agree with LemonJello that happiness is not necessarily the motivation for the action. In fact, I might argue that charity as a deliberate pursuit of self happiness may actually take away from the resulting effect.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThe interesting thing about the Book of Job is that Job comes out morally superior to God.
Job's not interested in any hypothetical answers from the likes of you or me. Job was blessed with prosperity and happiness, despite the severe testing for blessing (and example to the fallen angels and community in which he resided) he was chosen to undergo. Let's not be hasty in moving on; let's dwell for a few moments on the content of Job 1:10. Sugg ...[text shortened]... day in which this Old Testament Book was written:
http://www.godvine.com/bible/Job/1-10
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn both chess and human life there are protocols to be followed.
Do you really not understand that the desire for ones own 'Genuine Human Happiness' is self-centered in and of itself? Hence the irony?
Followed in chess, favorable outcomes; in life, human happiness.
Do you regard the desire to win and for happiness self-centered?
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Originally posted by Bosse de NageHardly, Boss. God's intent from Eternity Past (as contrasted with Eternity Future which resumes at the cessation of time)
The interesting thing about the Book of Job is that Job comes out morally superior to God.
was/still is to share His Perfect Integrity, Norms and Standards and Happiness with both Angelic and Human Creatures.
Eternity Past) ---------------------------------- [time/human history] ----------------------------------- (Eternity Future
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Originally posted by LemonJelloI think that that the helpers own "perceived" welfare as opposed to actual welfare is important here.That perception maybe self destructive but is still driven by psychological egoism . I tried to convey this in my original post( not very well ).
[b]A less obvious manifestation may be helping others, but this satisfies a need inside yourself .
Even if true, this certainly does not suffice to support psychological egoism. The question of psychological egoism has to do with what compromises the actual object of a motivation. It holds, basically, that the object of motivation is always somet ...[text shortened]... d (the discussion starts on page 4 and runs through page 6):
Thread 124149[/b]
3 edits
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOf course they are.
In both chess and human life there are protocols to be followed.
Followed in chess, favorable outcomes; in life, human happiness.
Do you regard the desire to win and for happiness self-centered?
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Seems like only an EXTREMELY self-centered individual would not consider "the desire to win and for happiness" to not be self-centered.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised that anyone could think otherwise. How are they not self-centered desires?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePlease recast the awkward (double negative) sentence.
Of course they are.
Seems like only an EXTREMELY self-centered individual would not consider "the desire to win and for happiness" to not be self-centered.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised that anyone could think otherwise. How are they not self-centered desires?
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIt wasn't that important. It was mostly added for levity anyway. I'll just omit it.
Please recast the awkward (double negative) sentence.
GB:
In both chess and human life there are protocols to be followed.
Followed in chess, favorable outcomes; in life, human happiness.
Do you regard the desire to win and for happiness self-centered?
ToO:
Of course they are.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised that anyone could think otherwise. How are they not self-centered desires?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBest that we avoid wasting each others time in the future.
It wasn't that important. It was mostly added for levity anyway. I'll just omit it.
GB:In both chess and human life there are protocols to be followed.
Followed in chess, favorable outcomes; in life, human happiness.
Do you regard the desire to win and for happiness self-centered?
ToO:Of course they are.
Quite ...[text shortened]... surprised that anyone could think otherwise. How are they not self-centered desires?
3 edits
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyNot sure why my question should elicit such a response. Seemed reasonable enough.
Best that we avoid wasting each others time in the future.
Perhaps it's because you are reluctant to shine the light of truth upon your position as it is built on sand. Such a realization could only serve to undermine your 'Genuine Human Happiness'. Of course given your reluctance, one can only wonder just how 'Genuine' you really believe it is.