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Originally posted by scherzoI am glad you brought this up. The history of Christiandom has the embarassing task of explaining away centuries of persecution inflcted by those of faith. Perhaps those who persecuted the Jews thought they were doing Gods work by persecuting the race that murdered Christ and who continue to deny him Messiah. Whatever their reasons, however, they are not supported by scripture nor by the acts and deeds of the 12 apostles.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Knock yourself out. And don't get back up.
Likewise, Islam has the embarassing task of explaining away Jewish persecution that has occured and continues to occur today. Many, if not most, have adopted the al-Husseini theology that a Jewish state in the Holy Land is incapatible with the original teachings of Mohammad. I gave just such an example of Husseini's racism as he ordered Jewish children to die rather than risk them becoming zionists of the future.
Looking at what we have before us, you could aruge that religion is inherently evil, however, it is not the message of Christ that those who persecuted the Jews were following and I suspect many would argue likewise that those persecuting Jews in the name of Mohammad are not really following the teachings of Mohammad.
As for Hitler, you provided a web site that was biased in their assessment of Hitler and his role in Christianity. More than likely it was produced by a bunch of Christian hating atheists. Nevertheless, it provides evidence that Hitler attempted to incorporate the Christian faith with persecution of the Jews, however, what choice did he have? He found himself in a society influenced heavily by the Christian faith and luckily for him, he found within this faith a rather dark history of anti-semitism. He then used it to accomplish his goals at hand. As for his dedication for the faith and for Christ, that is quite another thing altogether. I see no evidence for this.
I guess the differnece between a Muslim like Ahosyney and myself is that I recognize and address the "evils" committed in the name of my faith as where he has much more trouble in doing so. However, I find it important to do so and own up to them. What troubles me about a man like al-Husseini is that I suspect most Moslims hold him in high regard when in actuality he is nothing more than a demon in a mans body. I think part of the problem is that he started the resistance to the zionists and because of this he has been made a saint, so to speak, within the Islamic faith.
In short, I would say that any message is corruptible as seen in evidence from the past. Of course, I would say that this should be no suprise for the Christian because the Christian recognizes that man is a fallen race. It is only natural for him then to tarnish a perfect message. All we can then do is contniue to point to the message and try to live our lives accordingly. We should then study the author of our respective faiths rather than those who claim to speak for them. For me the author of my faith is Christ and for the Moslim it is Mohammad.
What we saw with Hitler was merely the climax of centuries of anti-semitism that had built up over the years in European Christiandom. What we are seeing now is the same for those in the Islamic world. Hopefully the climax will not be as brutal, but I have my doubts. Just ask the President of Iran what should be done with them.
Originally posted by whodeyAh, but you admit that Hitler was a Christian and committed the acts that he did in the name of Christianity. That's a start.
I am glad you brought this up. The history of Christiandom has the embarassing task of explaining away centuries of persecution inflcted by those of faith. Perhaps those who persecuted the Jews thought they were doing Gods work by persecuting the race that murdered Christ and who continue to deny him Messiah. Whatever their reasons, however, they are not s ...[text shortened]... brutal, but I have my doubts. Just ask the President of Iran what should be done with them.
Now, answer me this:
You seem to think that Islam is nearing the climax that Christianity did in the 1930s and 40s with the rise of fascists such as Hitler and Franco. How does Islam do such a thing toward Judaism, or, indeed, even Zionism? Have there been any "holocausts" other than the ones that Vilnai committed in March?
Originally posted by whodeyApparently you must be educated as well.
So maybe he spent the first half of his life hating Jews and participating in the mass murder of them as a race but later have a change of heart by becoming a zionist? Hmmm.
Zionism is not Judaism.
Zionism is not Judaism.
Zionism is not Judaism.
Semitism is not Judaism.
Semitism is not Judaism.
Semitism is not Judaism.
Zionism is not Semitism.
Zionism is not Semitism.
Zionism is not Semitism.
Semitism is an ethnicity. Arabs and Jews from the Middle East (thus, no Jews from Eastern Europe or Latin America or Russia, etc.) are Semites.
Judaism is a religion. A troubled religion, hit by hard times in the last couple millenia. One that I have nothing against.
Zionism is a political movement. It is a political movement for a Jewish state. Now, I have nothing against a Jewish state. But the cost is high for this state to be where it is. The cost?
A culture. A people. A country. A sovereignty. A reputation.
An identity.
Now, Hitler hated Jews and Arabs alike. Just because he made a deal with one Palestinian does not mean he liked Palestinians. Just because he made a deal with Stalin does not mean that he liked Communists. Just because he made a deal with Zionist leaders such as Ben-Gurion does not mean he liked Zionists ... or, by your limited definition, Jews.
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Originally posted by scherzoI made no such claim. I am merely stating that Hitler tried to use Christianity for his benefit. There is a huge difference. I asked you for evidence that he was a Christian other than by using it to twist his anti-semetic beliefs into mainstream society.
[b]Ah, but you admit that Hitler was a Christian and committed the acts that he did in the name of Christianity. That's a start.
Originally posted by whodeyHe was a Christian. He truly believed it. He thought he was cleansing Germany, as in making it new and clean and trim and polish.
I made no such claim. I am merely stating that Hitler tried to use Christianity for his benefit. There is a huge difference. I asked you for evidence that he was a Christian other than by using it to twist his anti-semetic beliefs into mainstream society.
Unfortunately, of course, in order to "cleanse" his country in the name of God, he had to, you know, just kill 11 million people in cold blood.
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Originally posted by scherzoWhat I mean is I don't claim to know what he believed. Did he believe in the Christian God or did he use such a God merely for his own purposes. If he did believe in the Christian God, it makes one wonder why he did not follow his teachings. Either he believed in the Christian God and decided not to follow his teachings or he did not believe in such a God to begin with.
He was a Christian. He truly believed it. He thought he was cleansing Germany, as in making it new and clean and trim and polish.
Unfortunately, of course, in order to "cleanse" his country in the name of God, he had to, you know, just kill 11 million people in cold blood.
In short, his words indicate a belief but his action indicate otherwise. Biblically, I don't think one would be called a Christian under these circumstances.
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Originally posted by scherzoWhat we have is an Islamic world that seems dedicated to the overthrow of the zionist state. This hatred I believe often leads to persecution of Jewish people despite whether or not they are zionists. Then you have people like the President of Iran saying that the Zionists will be cast into the sea while he works feverishly developing a nuclear program for "peaceful" pursuits. Meanwhile, states like Iran are in collaboration with terrorist groups like Hamas in the pursuit to overthrow of the Jewish state as we speak.
You seem to think that Islam is nearing the climax that Christianity did in the 1930s and 40s with the rise of fascists such as Hitler and Franco. How does Islam do such a thing toward Judaism, or, indeed, even Zionism? Have there been any "holocausts" other than the ones that Vilnai committed in March?[/b]
So you tell me. What is the end game here? There has to be one. After all, I don't see the zionists going any where any time soon, nor do I see their adversaries going anywhere any time soon either.
Originally posted by whodeyDid you read what I said? He thought that what he was doing acted in the name of "God"!
What I mean is I don't claim to know what he believed. Did he believe in the Christian God or did he use such a God merely for his own purposes. If he did believe in the Christian God, it makes one wonder why he did not follow his teachings. Either he believed in the Christian God and decided not to follow his teachings or he did not believe in such a God ...[text shortened]... herwise. Biblically, I don't think one would be called a Christian under these circumstances.
Originally posted by whodeyOf course their adversaries aren't going anywhere. They were here first.
What we have is an Islamic world that seems dedicated to the overthrow of the zionist state. This hatred I believe often leads to persecution of Jewish people despite whether or not they are zionists. Then you have people like the President of Iran saying that the Zionists will be cast into the sea while he works feverishly developing a nuclear program for ...[text shortened]... any where any time soon, nor do I see their adversaries going anywhere any time soon either.
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Originally posted by scherzoApparently you are not hearing what I am saying. If your words and actions do not correlate it is called hypocrisy and, in fact, Christ was very good as sniffing it out and calling people on it as I recall. That is why Christ hated it so much. People are going around doing things in the name of God when, in reality, it is all for their own purposes. All it does is give God a bad reputation when, in fact, he had NOTHING to do with their actions and in the process hurt innocent people.
Did you read what I said? He thought that what he was doing acted in the name of "God"!