1. Joined
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    21 Oct '08 23:10
    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief".

    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief" and "do good works".

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing spiritually?

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing as human beings?
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    21 Oct '08 23:161 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief".

    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief" and "do good works".

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing spiritually?

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing as human beings?
    You have two rather contrasting threads up.

    One is about "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

    The other is about "God accepts me as I am".

    Do you see an interesting contrast between these two ?
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    21 Oct '08 23:24
    Originally posted by jaywill
    You have two rather contrasting threads up.

    One is about "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

    The other is about "God accepts me as I am".

    Do you see an interesting contrast between these two ?
    Sure.

    Jesus commands that "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

    Many seem to ignore this command in order to believe that "God accepts me the way I am".

    Is that what you mean?
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    21 Oct '08 23:30
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Sure.

    Jesus commands that "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

    Many seem to ignore this command in order to believe that "God accepts me the way I am".

    Is that what you mean?
    =============================
    Jesus commands that "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
    =================================


    But is it a command or more like a prediction - a prophecy?

    =================================
    Many seem to ignore this command in order to believe that "God accepts me the way I am".
    ===================================


    I think you are prone to confuse two things.

    That is the meeting of man's need to be saved and the need of God to have fully matured sons of God.
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    21 Oct '08 23:40
    Like the other poster, I am also curious to know. Are you a pro crypto atheist ?
  6. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 00:073 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=============================
    Jesus commands that "You shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
    =================================


    But is it a command or more like a prediction - a prophecy?

    =================================
    Many seem to ignore this command in order to believe that "God accepts me the way I am".
    =========== ...[text shortened]... he meeting of man's need to be saved and the need of God to have fully matured sons of God.
    [/b]"But is it a command or more like a prediction - a prophecy?"

    Seeing that Jesus said it as a summation within the following context, it seems extremely unlikely to be a prophecy.

    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    .
    .
    Several "You have heard..." examples.
    .
    .
    "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Jesus was explaining how much the righteousness of His followers needs to surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees and summarized by saying that it needed to be as "perfect " "(complete) as God. That this is the requirement to "enter the kingdom of heaven".

    You aren't looking to hijack this thread as well as the previous one, are you? If not, why don't you take a stab at the questions in the original post?
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    22 Oct '08 01:481 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    "But is it a command or more like a prediction - a prophecy?"

    Seeing that Jesus said it as a summation within the following context, it seems extremely unlikely to be a prophecy.

    [i]"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    .
    .
    Several "You are you? If not, why don't you take a stab at the questions in the original post?[/b]
    =====================================
    Seeing that Jesus said it as a summation within the following context, it seems extremely unlikely to be a prophecy.

    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    ======================================


    You have a point. However that passage also sounds like a prophecy..

    ===============================
    Several "You have heard..." examples.
    ==================================



    That preliminary comment could preceed a prophecy.


    =====================================
    "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Jesus was explaining how much the righteousness of His followers needs to surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees and summarized by saying that it needed to be as "perfect " "(complete) as God. That this is the requirement to "enter the kingdom of heaven".
    ==========================================


    For Jesus to specify who and who was not going to enter into the kingdom of the heavens could well be spoken in a prophetic sense.


    ======================================
    You aren't looking to hijack this thread as well as the previous one, are you? If not, why don't you take a stab at the questions in the original post?
    =======================================


    I think your threads are pretty much variations on the same theme.

    But I don't want to interfere with this lattest variation. I just would like to know if you are a kind of secretive atheist. Do you keep your atheistic identity concealed ?

    For some odd reason I am not surprised that you left it unanswered.
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    22 Oct '08 15:15
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=====================================
    Seeing that Jesus said it as a summation within the following context, it seems extremely unlikely to be a prophecy.

    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    ======================================


    You have a ...[text shortened]... ealed ?

    For some odd reason I am not surprised that you left it unanswered.[/b]
    Jesus is simply explaining the standards of righeousness set by God. It's not a "prediction".
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Oct '08 15:35
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Jesus is simply explaining the standards of righeousness set by God. ..".
    King David was both an adulterer and a murderer, but was called a man after Gods own heart.

    You are therefore saying that Jesus does not know the standards set by God. OR God had a different standard in the time of David compared to now?

    Maybe the problem is you and your interpretation ?
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    22 Oct '08 15:422 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    King David was both an adulterer and a murderer, but was called a man after Gods own heart.

    You are therefore saying that Jesus does not know the standards set by God. OR God had a different standard in the time of David compared to now?

    Maybe the problem is you and your interpretation ?
    Here's my interpretation:
    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    .
    .
    Several "You have heard..." examples.
    .
    .
    "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Jesus was explaining how much the righteousness of His followers needs to surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees and summarized by saying that it needed to be as "perfect " "(complete) as God. That this is the requirement to "enter the kingdom of heaven".

    Please feel free to post yours.

    Try to keep in mind that in this passage, Jesus is explaining how God's Law, i.e. righteousness and man's understanding of righteousness are not in sync.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Oct '08 15:551 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Here's my interpretation:
    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
    .
    .
    Several "You have heard..." examples.
    .
    .
    "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

    Jesus was explaining how much the righteousness of Hi he requirement to "enter the kingdom of heaven".

    Please feel free to post yours.
    There is no way you can use one passage to determine the requirements for salvation. Thats your problem. You will never understand the teachings of Christ unless you take eveything He says in the light of other relevant accurate information.

    David WILL be in the kingdom. Or do you want to doubt that?
    David is a greater sinner than everybody I know because I know no murderers.
    David is not an exception as there are many sinners throughout the OT that were accounted worthy. Rehab the prostitute WILL be in the kingdom.

    Clearly your interpretation is incorrect.
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    22 Oct '08 16:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There is no way you can use one passage to determine the requirements for salvation. Thats your problem. You will never understand the teachings of Christ unless you take eveything He says in the light of other relevant accurate information.

    David WILL be in the kingdom. Or do you want to doubt that?
    David is a greater sinner than everybody I know becaus ...[text shortened]... thy. Rehab the prostitute WILL be in the kingdom.

    Clearly your interpretation is incorrect.
    If my interpretation is incorrect, then why don't you post the correct interpretation?

    Perhaps what you fail to understand is that Jesus teaches that provided one becomes "complete" in righteousness, there is forgiveness for sins of the past however egregious.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Oct '08 16:22
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    If my interpretation is incorrect, then why don't you post the correct interpretation?

    Perhaps what you fail to understand is that Jesus teaches that provided one becomes "complete" in righteousness, there is forgiveness for sins of the past however egregious.
    Thats another example of straitjacketed thinking. If you tell me that the squareroot of 99 is 8.789, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong. That does not mean that I can give you the correct answer. I will even tell you why you are wrong but I still cannot give you the correct answer.

    Understand? I showed you how your interpretation is wrong. Maybe discussion can proceed from the point at which you accept you are wrong and we can work towards finding a more acccurate interpretation of what CHrist said. But you holding on to that ridiculous interpretation does not help.

    As for the forgiveness in the past ... remember Solomon. He did a lot of nonsense as he got older and before he died. Married women God told him not to do and got carried away with idol worship. Yet you can take it to the bank that Solomons name is on the list.

    I dont think you have studied enough of the Bible to get an accurate birdseye view of Gods plan. You are still standing on the ground. Rise above the one passage habit you have and try to see the whole story.
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    22 Oct '08 17:55
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Thats another example of straitjacketed thinking. If you tell me that the squareroot of 99 is 8.789, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong. That does not mean that I can give you the correct answer. I will even tell you why you are wrong but I still cannot give you the correct answer.

    Understand? I showed you how your interpretation is wrong. Mayb ...[text shortened]... anding on the ground. Rise above the one passage habit you have and try to see the whole story.
    I find that these arguments against the words of Jesus often takes the form of Jesus says X, but what He means is Y, because someone else says Y (or even Z). What you seem to be doing is effectively saying, "Jesus says 'you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect', but what He can't mean this, because my interpretation of the Old Testament is contrary to what Jesus says". You've effectively decided to ignore what Jesus says, because of what you see in the Old Testament.

    You speak of "an accurate birdseye view of God's plan", but don't trust the words of Jesus to provide you with this. Maybe you should ask yourself if Jesus is your Lord or if the Old Testament is.

    If YOU "have studied enough of the Bible to get an accurate birdseye view of Gods plan", then I'd think you'd be able to provide an interpretation of the words of Jesus.
  15. Standard memberNemesio
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    22 Oct '08 18:021 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I find that these arguments against the words of Jesus often takes the form of Jesus says X, but what He means is Y, because someone else says Y (or even Z). What you seem to be doing is effectively saying, "Jesus says 'you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect', but what He can't mean this, because my interpretation of the Old Testament i , then I'd think you'd be able to provide an interpretation of the words of Jesus.
    Simply because I say to my son, 'You are to tell the truth,' doesn't mean that I don't know that at
    some point he won't. I may give the command, but it's tempered with love. When he fails to do
    so, he is punished accordingly, he shows contrition, I forgive him and then I reissue the command.

    In that context, I expect him to improve, not be flawless. Given Jesus' teachings on the nature
    of forgiving your brother and seeking forgiveness with your brother, I see no reason to see Jesus'
    proscription to be 'complete/perfect' (teleios) having the significance of completion as a
    criterion for salvation, just as I don't see utter truthfulness as a criterion for my son being a good
    son.

    You really struggle with the difference between 'what does it say,' and 'what does it mean.'
    Language rarely one-to-one in that regard, and translation from that language is never one-to-
    one. That's why I try to read it in the Greek along with translation aids in an effort to capture
    as much of that first-century, koine Greek, Jewish peasant feel as I can.

    Nemesio
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