1. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 18:28
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Simply because I say to my son, 'You are to tell the truth,' doesn't mean that I don't know that at
    some point he won't. I may give the command, but it's tempered with love. When he fails to do
    so, he is punished accordingly, he shows contrition, I forgive him and then I reissue the command.

    In that context, I expect him to improve, not be flawless. ...[text shortened]... uch of that first-century, koine Greek, Jewish peasant feel as I can.

    Nemesio
    By this line of thinking, I'd think that you'd agree with the following:

    Simply because I say to my son, 'You are to do good works,' doesn't mean that I don't know that at
    some point he won't. I may give the command, but it's tempered with love. When he fails to do
    so, he is punished accordingly, he shows contrition, I forgive him and then I reissue the command.

    In that context, I expect him to improve, not be flawless. Given Jesus' teachings on the nature
    of forgiving your brother and seeking forgiveness with your brother, I see no reason to see Jesus'
    proscription to be 'complete/perfect' (teleios) having the significance of completion as a
    criterion for salvation, just as I don't see doing good works as a criterion for my son being a good
    son.
  2. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 18:37
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Jesus is simply explaining the standards of righeousness set by God. It's not a "prediction".
    ========================================
    Jesus is simply explaining the standards of righeousness set by God. It's not a "prediction".
    ==========================================



    Well then do you believe that it is possible to be perfect without the help of the heavenly Father ?
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    22 Oct '08 18:571 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief".

    There are many who seem to believe this with all that is required is that they are baptised and / or "profess belief" and "do good works".

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing spiritually?

    How much do you believe this hinders the above from maturing as human beings?
    I've discovered that only God can make me into the man He wants me to be. Whatever I attempt to achieve in my own power has always, for me, ended in failure.

    I don't wring my hands with worry about whether I'm saved or not; neither do I comfort myself with the idea that I've fulfilled some requirement in the past, such as "professing belief" or "baptism" or "good works". None of that in itself has produced real fruit in my past.

    I have no doubt that God desires for me to live an overflowing life, full of grace, goodness and peace. Lord knows that's what I want as well. The Lord also knows the only way I get there from here depends on me recognizing the imperfection of my life as it presently is (addiction, resentments, fear, uncharitable attitudes, hard-heartedness, time-management issues, etc.).

    After recognizing how helpless I am, that I am unable in my own power to "cure" myself and make myself into the kind of man God desires me to be, then I have the perpetual opportunity to surrender to the Spirit of God. If I never recognized what I lack, nor my need for God, I would never take that opportunity to surrender. I do this daily. Sometimes every fifteen minutes, when necessary. This is what is real to me, and it's the only thing that bears fruit in my life. Everything else is a head trip, IMO.

    Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment. Love indeed does so, and more. It fills you and moves you.

    All the famous saints down through history have been courageously self-effacing in one way or another. It's part of the deal. If you want what God has, then you have to humble yourself. Humbling yourself necessarily involves a perpetual recognition of who you are before the Lord, which is a sinner. An imperfect being in one way or another. What is truly damaging to the integrity and genuineness of a person's walk with God is the false belief that I've achieved perfection. I'd say, if anyone ever says as much within earshot, run for the hills.

    However, it is also equally damaging for someone to believe that perfection is impossible to achieve. It is entirely possible! But only through a perpetual surrender, which in itself involves recognizing one's imperfection. It sounds contradictory, but that's the way it is. God is strong in our weakness.

    Like I said, only God can make me into the man He desires me to be. If I attempt to become that in my own power (my own will), I have always failed.
  4. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 21:461 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I've discovered that only God can make me into the man He wants me to be. Whatever I attempt to achieve in my own power has always, for me, ended in failure.

    I don't wring my hands with worry about whether I'm saved or not; neither do I comfort myself with the idea that I've fulfilled some requirement in the past, such as "professing belief" or "bapt attempt to become that in my own power (my own will), I have always failed.
    "Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment."

    What leads you to believe this?

    How does this fit with the following?:
    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
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    22 Oct '08 22:00
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    If my interpretation is incorrect, then why don't you post the correct interpretation?

    Perhaps what you fail to understand is that Jesus teaches that provided one becomes "complete" in righteousness, there is forgiveness for sins of the past however egregious.
    No this is erroneous and scripturaly unsound, you cannot get forgiveness for having sinned against the holy spirit,

    ''Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

    And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming'', - Matthew 12: 31 Youngs literal translation.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Oct '08 22:03
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]"Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment."

    What leads you to believe this?

    How does this fit with the following?:
    Matthew 7:21-23
    Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in ...[text shortened]... orks?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]
    No way! Christ actually says He is interested in those people who just shut the hell up and go do the will of God???
    Isnt that called WORKS? Nah .. cant be.
    But .. But .. But ... Paul said .....

    😀
  7. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 22:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    No this is erroneous and scripturaly unsound, you cannot get forgiveness for having sinned against the holy spirit,

    ''Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

    And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him ...[text shortened]... er in this age, nor in that which is coming'', - Matthew 12: 31 Youngs literal translation.
    My intent was to address the examples given by the poster, though I wondered if someone might bring that up. You know I've never found anyone who could explain exactly what that verse means. Can you? I suspect it might prevent one from becoming "complete" in righteousness.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
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    22 Oct '08 22:12
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I've discovered that only God can make me into the man He wants me to be. Whatever I attempt to achieve in my own power has always, for me, ended in failure.

    I don't wring my hands with worry about whether I'm saved or not; neither do I comfort myself with the idea that I've fulfilled some requirement in the past, such as "professing belief" or "bapt ...[text shortened]... attempt to become that in my own power (my own will), I have always failed.
    Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment. Love indeed does so, and more. It fills you and moves you.
    ---------------ephin----------------------------

    Ahhhh....the voice of sanity! Well said! The problem is that the unconditional acceptance and love of God is too threatening simple for us to take in. We NEED to feel that we have to do something in order to earn his love or BE something to earn it. The simple idea that God just loves us , period, is just not complicated enough for us.
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    22 Oct '08 22:24
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    My intent was to address the examples given by the poster, though I wondered if someone might bring that up. You know I've never found anyone who could explain exactly what that verse means. Can you? I suspect it might prevent one from becoming "complete" in righteousness.
    i could try, the problem with perfection is that it cannot be obtained while in a sinful state, so i guess we shall need to wait until the end of Christs millennial reign when all sickness and death and sin are no more, then, we shall be able to attain to true perfection. anyhow let me do some research, first i will try Alfred Edersheim, his book, the life and times of the messiah published in 1906 is the most thoroughly well researched book that i have ever read on the life of Christ, he was a Jewish convert to Christianity and his knowledge of the Jews and their practices, especially the different political parties and intricacies of Jewish law is second to none, lets see what happens.-
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    22 Oct '08 22:28
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment. Love indeed does so, and more. It fills you and moves you.
    ---------------ephin----------------------------

    Ahhhh....the voice of sanity! Well said! The problem is that the unconditional acceptance and love of God is too thr ...[text shortened]... earn it. The simple idea that God just loves us , period, is just not complicated enough for us.
    Paul himself gives an excellent definition as to the nature of love, and guess what, it not quasi mystical but biblical! 1 Corinthians 13

    check this out, the message Bible

    If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. 2If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. 3 -7If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

    Love never gives up.
    Love cares more for others than for self.
    Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
    Love doesn't strut,
    Doesn't have a swelled head,
    Doesn't force itself on others,
    Isn't always "me first,"
    Doesn't fly off the handle,
    Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
    Doesn't revel when others grovel,
    Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
    Puts up with anything,
    Trusts God always,
    Always looks for the best,
    Never looks back,
    But keeps going to the end.

    awesome, ' love doesn't strut', no more beegees and nightfever for ol, Robbie.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Oct '08 22:28
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Implicit in surrender is the love of God. Love is not love if it does not accept you for exactly who you are at this moment. Love indeed does so, and more. It fills you and moves you.
    ---------------ephin----------------------------

    Ahhhh....the voice of sanity! Well said! The problem is that the unconditional acceptance and love of God is too thr ...[text shortened]... earn it. The simple idea that God just loves us , period, is just not complicated enough for us.
    Which of the characters in the following story would you say had the love of God in him, the levite, the priest or the Samaritan?

    I know, I dont know the correct interpretation of that parable.
    I am in the dark.
    Do you think the priest and the levite thought that their salvation was guaranteed, and maybe thats why they passed the suffering man without helping? I mean why take risks with your life when your seat in the kingdom is booked !
    The Samaritan did not know of Christ so I guess his good deeds are like useless rags !!! Am I finally right ?

    *********
    Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
    29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
    30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
    31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
    32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
    33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
    34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
    35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
    36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
    37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
    *************
  12. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 22:351 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i could try, the problem with perfection is that it cannot be obtained while in a sinful state, so i guess we shall need to wait until the end of Christs millennial reign when all sickness and death and sin are no more, then, we shall be able to attain to true perfection. anyhow let me do some research, first i will try Alfred Edersheim, his book, t ...[text shortened]... erent political parties and intricacies of Jewish law is second to none, lets see what happens.-
    Thanks. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.

    "the problem with perfection is that it cannot be obtained while in a sinful state, so i guess we shall need to wait until the end of Christs millennial reign when all sickness and death and sin are no more, then, we shall be able to attain to true perfection."

    As I've shown, Jesus said otherwise.
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    22 Oct '08 22:451 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Thanks. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.

    [b]"the problem with perfection is that it cannot be obtained while in a sinful state, so i guess we shall need to wait until the end of Christs millennial reign when all sickness and death and sin are no more, then, we shall be able to attain to true perfection."


    As I've shown, Jesus said otherwise.[/b]
    lol, yeh sure you have, sure you have, i thought i saw a putty cat, i did, i did, i did saw a putty cat, that bad ol putty cat!
  14. Joined
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    22 Oct '08 22:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    lol, yeh sure you have, sure you have, i thought i saw a putty cat, i did, i did, i did saw a putty cat, that bad ol putty cat!
    John 8:32-36
    So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
    Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
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    22 Oct '08 22:52
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    John 8:32-36
    So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "[b]If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
    " They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
    Jesu ...[text shortened]... he son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.[/b]"[/b]
    and your point is caller?
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