God Manifesting Himself ?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes I have to agree with Conrau and Manny. G75 seems to have a JW leaning.
And Conrau I totally agree with you, in theory anyway, that statues and images can be worshipped without being idolized.
I don't know why G75 cant grasp this.
Of course there are always going to be exceptions, but that is true with all religons and denominations. If the bas . Of course I am not the same religon as you, but thats not what I look for in a good debate🙂

Ok...lets reason on this. One of the ten commandments say's do not murder. Right?
There can be no diveation from this command. You either murder someone or you don't. You can't halfway kill a person. It is a simple and just law from God. It is there for an obvious reason.
The one in question is Do Not make a graven image of any kind. No where in this law does it state that there are exceptions of anykind just as there are no exceptions to murder.
The 10 commandments could have been thousands of laws or even more hundreds of thousands of gray area principles that could have been confusuing depending on the situation. But no..it was ten simple laws and each one said "DO NOT" do such a thing.
And then on top of that you have countless laws and warnings and examples of how God hates idols, images, statues or anything of the like when it comes to a spiritual situation when God is involved. He calls himself a jealous God.
Did he not destroy countless nations of old for having idols?
Did he not show his hatred for the Golden calf for the ones who made it when leaving Egypt? And this they made to honor God and pray to it to thank God for their release from Egypt? If idols would have been ok for us to have to pray to God, then that would have been the first sign it was ok.
Do you not see that the Bible is full of warnings thru history that God detest images and idols no matter what?
But the thing is ones who use idols it is your own decision. But if one would look past what a paticular religion does and would go strictly by the Bible and what ""God says"", one would never have an idol in there position ever...... Why take the chance when you don't need them at all. Pray thru Jesus as he told us and your prayers will be heard.
And again I've asked for one simple scripture that says the use of an idol in praying to God is ok and yet not one has come up. Why?

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok...lets reason on this. One of the ten commandments say's do not murder. Right?
There can be no diveation from this command. You either murder someone or you don't. You can't halfway kill a person. It is a simple and just law from God. It is there for an obvious reason.
The one in question is Do Not make a graven image of any kind. No where in this ...[text shortened]... hat says the use of an idol in praying to God is ok and yet not one has come up. Why?

And then on top of that you have countless laws and warnings and examples of how God hates idols, images, statues or anything of the like when it comes to a spiritual situation when God is involved. He calls himself a jealous God.

And yet -- God frequently commands the Israelites to build statues and images. So long as they do not worship them, either considering them another God or as an image of God Himself, God clearly approves of the Israelites.

Why take the chance when you don't need them at all. Pray thru Jesus as he told us and your prayers will be heard.

You are unable to distinguish two separate issues. On the one hand, there is the argument about the use of statues and whether this is idolatrous; on the other, there is issue of intercession and whether it is right to pray to Mary, the angels and the saints. These are two separate issues and you are wrong to conflate them.

And as I have demonstrated, Revelations clearly indicates the power of intercession. The saints in heaven offer up their prayers to God on behalf of the people. This is precisely where Catholicism derives its practice of praying to the saints.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok...lets reason on this. One of the ten commandments say's do not murder. Right?
There can be no diveation from this command. You either murder someone or you don't. You can't halfway kill a person. It is a simple and just law from God. It is there for an obvious reason.
The one in question is Do Not make a graven image of any kind. No where in this ...[text shortened]... hat says the use of an idol in praying to God is ok and yet not one has come up. Why?

I assure you, there is spirituality outside of christianity and the bible. But if you dont recognize htis fact it will be impossible to have a meaningful debate.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]And then on top of that you have countless laws and warnings and examples of how God hates idols, images, statues or anything of the like when it comes to a spiritual situation when God is involved. He calls himself a jealous God.

And yet -- God frequently commands the Israelites to build statues and images. So long as they do not worship them, ei the people. This is precisely where Catholicism derives its practice of praying to the saints.[/b]

Ok..I give up. Do as you please. But still no scripture you've shown to """pray"""" thru an image or idol. Why?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I assure you, there is spirituality outside of christianity and the bible. But if you dont recognize htis fact it will be impossible to have a meaningful debate.

Sure there is. And believe it or not I've heard of those.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok..I give up. Do as you please. But still no scripture you've shown to """pray"""" thru an image or idol. Why?

You are very confused. Certainly no one prays through a statue or image.

Originally posted by Conrau K
You are very confused. Certainly no one prays through a statue or image.

Then what is it for then? Do you give it honor or admiration or bow to them?

Originally posted by galveston75
Then what is it for then? Do you give it honor or admiration?

Honor is only given to what the icon represents. So for example, I may genuflect before the cross or kiss an icon of Jesus Christ. I am not revering the object itself but the person whom it depicts.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Honor is only given to what the icon represents. So for example, I may genuflect before the cross or kiss an icon of Jesus Christ. I am not revering the object itself but the person whom it depicts.

Do you bow to them?

Originally posted by galveston75
Do you bow to them?

I don't; some do. But so long as this does not involve any disposition to worship, this is acceptable. In Japan, it is customary to bow as a way of salutation. There is nothing idolatrous in this either.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't; some do. But so long as this does not involve any disposition to worship, this is acceptable. In Japan, it is customary to bow as a way of salutation. There is nothing idolatrous in this either.

Wow..... Maybe you don't but just found a few pics you might like to see. Also notice that it's not just pics of Catholics including your Pope that do this but other religions worldwide that probably your church says are pagans. Very interesting I would think. How does this fit in with Ex 20: 4,5? Have you ever read this scripture I wonder???
It seems that Catholics and other religions too seem to see some gray made up lines that that can cross that really don't exist with God. Either you worship him with Truth or you don't. So be it....

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?query=catholics bowing to idols&flv=1

Originally posted by galveston75
Wow..... Maybe you don't but just found a few pics you might like to see. Also notice that it's not just pics of Catholics including your Pope that do this but other religions worldwide that probably your church says are pagans. Very interesting I would think. How does this fit in with Ex 20: 4,5? Have you ever read this scripture I wonder???
It seems on't. So be it....

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?query=catholics bowing to idols&flv=1

Again, I do not see how this is idolatrous. All these Catholics are doing is paying honor to Mary (who, mind you, is not pagan but is the mother of Jesus Christ.) Just as early Christians gathered merely to come before Peter's shadow, so Christians show similar honor to Mary. This however is not worship.

Bowing is not in itself idolatrous. King Solomon bows to the Queen of Bathsheba without reproach:

19 Then Bethsabee came to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. 1Kings 2:19

Originally posted by Conrau K
Again, I do not see how this is idolatrous. All these Catholics are doing is paying honor to Mary (who, mind you, is not pagan but is the mother of Jesus Christ.) Just as early Christians gathered merely to come before Peter's shadow, so Christians show similar honor to Mary. This however is not worship.

Bowing is not in itself idolatrous. King Solomon b ...[text shortened]... throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. 1Kings 2:19

Do as you will.....

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok...lets reason on this. One of the ten commandments say's do not murder. Right?
There can be no diveation from this command. You either murder someone or you don't. You can't halfway kill a person. It is a simple and just law from God. It is there for an obvious reason.
The one in question is Do Not make a graven image of any kind. No where in this ...[text shortened]... hat says the use of an idol in praying to God is ok and yet not one has come up. Why?

Actually there are differences in the taking of life that is distinguished in the bible. Examples of this can be found in the law somewhere. Example would be if it was unintentional like an accident were a man takes another mans life. Murder would be with intent or laying in wait to kill. G75 how do you reconcile God having armies that killed their enemies when this would seem to go against JW doctrine? They were warriors sanctioned by God especially King David and His wars.




Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
Sure there is. And believe it or not I've heard of those.

And none of those,iyo, bome close to the 'glory' of the bible,right?