God Manifesting Himself ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this bowing down can hardly be construed as an act of worship, can it? It was merely an eastern custom, and may still be in some places, to prostrate oneself before another. In fact i think that Galvo has a point, bowing to inanimate objects has always been associated with pagan elements. bowing to a person on the other hand was more frequently use ...[text shortened]... tars, those giving out knowledge at the new moons concerning the things that will come upon you.

this bowing down can hardly be construed as an act of worship, can it? It was merely an eastern custom, and may still be in some places, to prostrate oneself before another.

Exactly. It is not an act of worship. This is my whole point. Bowing in itself is not necessarily an act of worship.

In fact i think that Galvo has a point, bowing to inanimate objects has always been associated with pagan elements. bowing to a person on the other hand was more frequently used as a simple greeting to show respect, in approaching them on a matter of business.

I agree that bowing to inanimate objects (or more specifically, the idols of foreign gods) is usually connected with worship. I think however that there is a substantial difference between the Israelites bowing to Baal and a Catholic bowing to a statue of Mary. In the former, the Israelites actually believed that the statue was divine and that Baal would deliver them from present evils; in the latter, the Catholic does not believe that the statue is divine and their only intention is to show honor to the person represented.

In the quotes I showed, however, the OT depicts people bowing not just to people but to angels and to the temple of God. This is not just business protocol. While only God should be worshiped, this does not mean that no honor can be given elsewhere. It seems that in some circumstances bowing is a legitimate way of paying honor.

Originally posted by galveston75
I simply focus on the Bible. God's words and not mans words...

The Bible however was written by men; it is part of the tradition of the Church which Christ established. Jesus Christ did not hand over a book to the early Christians; rather, he established a community of believers under the influence of the Holy Spirit who only subsequently wrote the Scriptures. It is for this reason that Catholics consider both Scripture and the traditions to be authoritative.

Originally posted by galveston75
I agree about Jaywill and Freaky. I start reading their post and loose track of what the subject is even about....
But my friend none, not one of these things were used in the worship of God. Yes ones of old bowed to acknowledge a King or a ruler of a nation in showing respect or honor. None of this was in worshipping that person. In the instances of o ...[text shortened]... down". If one bows down before an idol or image to pray or to use, you are worshipping it.

Whatever. Discussion with you is just impossible. You keep suggesting that I want to justify the worship of idols. I do not. I think you are an idiot if you really believe that bowing down before a foreign god, rejecting the true God, is somehow comparable with paying honor to Mary.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Whatever. Discussion with you is just impossible. You keep suggesting that I want to justify the worship of idols. I do not. I think you are an idiot if you really believe that bowing down before a foreign god, rejecting the true God, is somehow comparable with paying honor to Mary.

Well I'm not an idiot and I would never insult you that way. I'm only trying to get you and others that have in their possesion idols and images that are used in connection with the worship of God which he totally hates and condemns. Take it or leave it. But don't insult me...................

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I'm not an idiot and I would never insult you that way. I'm only trying to get you and others that have in their possesion idols and images that are used in connection with the worship of God which he totally hates and condemns. Take it or leave it. But don't insult me...................

I'm only trying to get you and others that have in their possesion idols and images that are used in connection with the worship of God which he totally hates and condemns.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I raise a point; you ignore it and then pretend it never happened. I have already given abundant evidence that God frequently commands the Israelites to build statues and icons (really, you are just insulting to continually describe Catholic statues as 'idols'.) As I see it, there is a huge difference between bowing to a foreign god and bowing to a statue of Mary, who after all is 'blessed among all women'. As Mary herself said 'All generations shall call me blessed.'

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I'm only trying to get you and others that have in their possesion idols and images that are used in connection with the worship of God which he totally hates and condemns.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I raise a point; you ignore it and then pretend it never happened. I have already given abundant evidence that God frequently c ...[text shortened]... 'blessed among all women'. As Mary herself said 'All generations shall call me blessed.'[/b]

Yes she was blessed to have been chosen to have the birth of Jesus thru her. She never said to bow down and pray to God thru her. Really big differance.
And again.....show me one scripture where God told his people to bow and worship an idol? (((((((((( 1 ))))))))))))))))

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes she was blessed to have been chosen to have the birth of Jesus thru her. She never said to bow down and pray to God thru her. Really big differance.
And again.....show me one scripture where God told his people to bow and worship an idol? (((((((((( 1 ))))))))))))))))

She never said to bow down and pray to God thru her. Really big differance.

I don't understand this Galveston. How many times do I have to repeat myself. We Catholics do not pray to God through her. We can pray to God all by ourselves. Instead, we meditate on Mary and ask her to pray for us. There is nothing unprecedented about this. St Paul asks for his readers to pray for him: Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1. Jesus Christ also heals people on the request of others: Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55. So why should it be wrong to pray to Mary and the saints to in turn pray for us? They stand in the presence of God (Heb. 12:22-23) and as James says 'The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects' (James 5:6).

So given that the saints are righteous and stand in the presence of God and given that God hears their prayers (look at Rev 5, 8) and that Jesus himself performed miracles at the prayers on behalf of another, then it seems right to pray to the saints.

And again.....show me one scripture where God told his people to bow and worship an idol?

This is why I call you an idiot. SEVERAL TIMES I HAVE SAID -- I DO NOT CONDONE THE WORSHIP OF IDOLS. I do not consider Catholic statues to be idols (we do not, as I have explained, consider them divinities) nor do we worship these statues.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]She never said to bow down and pray to God thru her. Really big differance.

I don't understand this Galveston. How many times do I have to repeat myself. We Catholics do not pray to God through her. We can pray to God all by ourselves. Instead, we meditate on Mary and ask her to pray for us. There is nothing unprecedented about this. St Paul asks ...[text shortened]... s (we do not, as I have explained, consider them divinities) nor do we worship these statues.[/b]

We Catholics do not pray to God through her. We can pray to God all by ourselves. Instead, we meditate on Mary and ask her to pray for us.

I haven't read much of this debate, but if you ask Mary to pray for you, how is this not praying to God through her?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]We Catholics do not pray to God through her. We can pray to God all by ourselves. Instead, we meditate on Mary and ask her to pray for us.

I haven't read much of this debate, but if you ask Mary to pray for you, how is this not praying to God through her?[/b]

No where in the Bible does it say to pray thru anyone "EXCEPT" thru Jesus. He said to pray thru him and never said or even hinted it was ok to pray thru anyone but him. And then to make a statue of a person to use and venerate and bow to and kiss in a spiritual setting when God demanded to never do that?
Also Mary can't help anyone as she is dead.....

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]She never said to bow down and pray to God thru her. Really big differance.

I don't understand this Galveston. How many times do I have to repeat myself. We Catholics do not pray to God through her. We can pray to God all by ourselves. Instead, we meditate on Mary and ask her to pray for us. There is nothing unprecedented about this. St Paul asks ...[text shortened]... s (we do not, as I have explained, consider them divinities) nor do we worship these statues.[/b]

One scripture.....

Originally posted by galveston75
No where in the Bible does it say to pray thru anyone "EXCEPT" thru Jesus. He said to pray thru him and never said or even hinted it was ok to pray thru anyone but him. And then to make a statue of a person to use and venerate and bow to and kiss in a spiritual setting when God demanded to never do that?
Also Mary can't help anyone as she is dead.....

No where in the Bible does it say to pray thru anyone "EXCEPT" thru Jesus. He said to pray thru him and never said or even hinted it was ok to pray thru anyone but him.

Actually, as I illustrated earlier, the prayers of the saints are offered to God as an incense (Revelations 5, 8). But obviously you completely ignored these passages. You went on a tangent about the 24 elders -- a typical strategy of yours to pretend that no counter-argument has been presented.

And then to make a statue of a person to use and venerate and bow to and kiss in a spiritual setting when God demanded to never do that?

No one is ever made to bow or kiss a statue. In fact, I have never witnessed anyone bow before a statue. You are completely ignorant of Catholicism and have no right whatsoever to criticise.

Also Mary can't help anyone as she is dead.....

As illustrated in Revelations, however, the dead can pray.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I haven't read much of this debate, but if you ask Mary to pray for you, how is this not praying to God through her?

Well it is. What I reject is the misconception that Catholics only pray to God through saints. In fact, most of our prayers are to Jesus (in accordance with John 14: 13-14). We do not pray to the saints as if it were impossible to access God in any other way. We pray to the saints so that they can pray for us because as Scripture indicates, they do pray and their prayers are efficacious.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]No where in the Bible does it say to pray thru anyone "EXCEPT" thru Jesus. He said to pray thru him and never said or even hinted it was ok to pray thru anyone but him.

Actually, as I illustrated earlier, the prayers of the saints are offered to God as an incense (Revelations 5, 8). But obviously you completely ignored these passages. You went on ...[text shortened]... anyone as she is dead.....[/b]

As illustrated in Revelations, however, the dead can pray.[/b]

http://search.aol.com/aol/image?query=catholics%20bowing%20to%20idols&flv=1

Perhaps you should review these pictures again. It's funny how I show you proof of what you say does not happen and you still deny it. What's up?

Originally posted by galveston75

Perhaps you should review these pictures again. It's funny how I show you proof of what you say does not happen and you still deny it. What's up?

Galvo, I am going to give you a second chance. Did I deny that some Catholics bow to statues of Mary or did I dent that Catholics are forced to use statues (which was your claim)?

You could at least reply to my other points. I think I have submitted compelling proof that the saints pray on our behalf and that their prayers are heard.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I agree that bowing to inanimate objects (or more specifically, the idols of foreign gods) is usually connected with worship. I think however that there is a substantial difference between the Israelites bowing to Baal and a Catholic bowing to a statue of Mary. In the former, the Israelites actually believed that the statue was divine and that Baal would de ...[text shortened]... that the statue is divine and their only intention is to show honor to the person represented.

I find it highly unlikely that Israelites bowing to a statue of Baal thought the statue itself was divine. They almost certainly used it in the same way that Catholics use statues today - as a representation of the entity they wished to communicate with and thus a focus point of prayer.