Originally posted by telerion If your God can create a world in which every one has free will, but chooses not to sin, a world which is so blissful it is called "heaven," why didn't he bother making it in the first place? Why did God bother making fake happiness? This is all so very silly.
God created man in a perfect world. But He did not want to force man to love Him. That is why he gave man a command with a free will. Man with his free will chose not to obey God. Thus man payed the consequences. Thus it is mans choice that caused the fake happiness to come upon himself. But God made a way in which man could be re-united with God. You should know about that so I needn't go into detail.
Originally posted by telerion If your God can create a world in which every one has free will, but chooses not to sin, a world which is so blissful it is called "heaven," why didn't he bother making it in the first place? Why did God bother making fake happiness? This is all so very silly.
Originally posted by dj2becker God created man in a perfect world. But He did not want to force man to love Him. That is why he gave man a command with a free will. Man with his free will chose not to obey God. Thus man payed the consequences. Thus it is mans choice that caused the fake happiness to come upon himself. But God made a way in which man could be re-united with God. You should know about that so I needn't go into detail.
Oh I had a pretty good idea that you would respond this way. I do thank you for sparing me the alter call. You failed to see my point though.
Do you understand that your own post implies that heaven is a place where we are forced to love God?
Originally posted by telerion Oh I had a pretty good idea that you would respond this way. I do thank you for sparing me the alter call. You failed to see my point though.
Do you understand that your own post implies that heaven is a place where we are forced to love God?
Don't you worry. Only those that really want to be in Heaven will go there. No one gets forced into Heaven.
Originally posted by telerion dj2becker did at the bottom of page 2
I said free-will is an earthly concept but that I couldn't see why you would not have free-will in Heaven, due to the fact that those in Heaven would be the ones that wanted to be there and would anyway have loved God by their own free-will on earth and would thus do the same in Heaven.
Originally posted by dj2becker I said free-will is an earthly concept but that I couldn't see why you would not have free-will in Heaven, due to the fact that those in Heaven would be the ones that wanted to be there and would anyway have loved God by their own free-will on earth and would thus do the same in Heaven.
If a person had free will after death, he could choose to accept God after death - and hence avoid Hell. Since the latter cannot be done, it follows that the former is impossible as well.
Originally posted by lucifershammer If a person had free will after death, he could choose to accept God after death - and hence avoid Hell. Since the latter cannot be done, it follows that the former is impossible as well.
Originally posted by dj2becker I said free-will is an earthly concept but that I couldn't see why you would not have free-will in Heaven, due to the fact that those in Heaven would be the ones that wanted to be there and would anyway have loved God by their own free-will on earth and would thus do the same in Heaven.
Why didn't God create only those that he knew would use their free will to accept him in the first place? Why would a loving God create people that he knew would not accept him?
Originally posted by lucifershammer If a person had free will after death, he could choose to accept God after death - and hence avoid Hell. Since the latter cannot be done, it follows that the former is impossible as well.
This is going to open up a whole can of worms from the Argument from Evil or the Argument from Needless Pain and Suffering. You've basically eliminated the Free Will Defense.
Originally posted by telerion Why didn't God create only those that he knew would use their free will to accept him in the first place? Why would a loving God create people that he knew would not accept him?
Maybe those that would wouldn't without those that wouldn't. But maybe I'm being a little Calvinistic here.
Originally posted by telerion This is going to open up a whole can of worms from the Argument from Evil or the Argument from Needless Pain and Suffering. You've basically eliminated the Free Will Defense.
How so? I don't remember FWD referring to post-death scenarios.
Originally posted by lucifershammer How so? I don't remember FWD referring to post-death scenarios.
The free will defense meets these arguments by claiming that free will was necessary for a perfect world (Without it we would be robots. This is a bad thing yada yada yada). Free will then led to sin (or evil), which caused pain and suffering and death.
In the past, I have attacked this by asking why God wouldn't create us in such a way that while we had free will, we always chose to serve God because we realized just how wonderful God really is. Invariably I've received responses that claim that this is not true free will and that sin must actualize in order for true free will to exist.
Now you've claimed that in heaven, a perfect place and one without pain and suffering by definition, we do not need free will. Then this bring us back to the question, "If a benevolent God exists, why is there evil or why is there needless pain and suffering?"
God view
17 May '05 18:57
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