Originally posted by yoctobyteI discuss matters, not persons. (Unless someone is trying to discuss personal things.) I know you of what you write, not of who you are, because of what you are I don't know anything unless you tell me.
You read too deep my friend into something that is not there. To start, I don't see your remarks towards me as criticizing, I have no hard feelings by anything you say and I surely am not insulted by any of your comments... I don't even know you. I would think there should be a relationship in place to feel the sting of another's words, especially from s ...[text shortened]... here, you now just need to open you eyes and see them, you have to want to see them.
Regards.
Back to business. You feel all right to not understand, to label it mystery is okay by you. Fine with me, but that is not who I am. When there is something I don't understand, I ask. If I don't get answers, then I try again. When I find a paradox, I'm sure that there is an answer that can resolve this paradox. If not, I don't like the situation. It's like a mathematician get a solution of an equation that 1=2. Then he expect that he has done something wrong somewhere. If he cannot find the error, then he feels very uneasy. So do I.
"God loves us unconditionally" is a paradox for me. (1) Because he send people he loves to the burning lakes of fire for eternity. That's not love. (2) That he kills all people of earth (except eight) during the flood. Sinners, innocent, children and animals are left to drown. That's not love. (3) The church force people to have opinions that church allows, no others. they even burn people alive for that. Instead of letting god judge. that's not love. This is a paradox for me. An unresolved paradox. For you it is a mystery. And you are settled with that. You relax and feel good about it. That I cannot.
Further: The answers I get come from the same source - the bible. Yet people have so different views about it. Like there are no common ground for the christian religion. That's another paradox for me, but that I will handle in another thread. The whole christian belief system seems to being built upon a mish mash of paradoxes (or mysteries). I'm not satisfied with that.
Therefore I cannot ever be a christian believer. If there were answers for every question I have (like in mathematics), then the christian religion would be more interesting to embrace. But this isn't so. Mysteries are no answers. I remain a non-christian and will enjoy my life as such.
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou raise some interesting points, and I would like to answer... won't be till later though.
I discuss matters, not persons. (Unless someone is trying to discuss personal things.) I know you of what you write, not of who you are, because of what you are I don't know anything unless you tell me.
Back to business. You feel all right to not understand, to label it mystery is okay by you. Fine with me, but that is not who I am. When there is somet ...[text shortened]... his isn't so. Mysteries are no answers. I remain a non-christian and will enjoy my life as such.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasIt should be obvious to you FF since you know some of the contents of the Bible that Gods love is NOT unconditional. Not by your definition anyhow.
I discuss matters, not persons. (Unless someone is trying to discuss personal things.) I know you of what you write, not of who you are, because of what you are I don't know anything unless you tell me.
Back to business. You feel all right to not understand, to label it mystery is okay by you. Fine with me, but that is not who I am. When there is somet ...[text shortened]... his isn't so. Mysteries are no answers. I remain a non-christian and will enjoy my life as such.
The proponents of the idea that 'Gods love is unconditional' are simply taking one aspect of Gods love and making a broad conclusion which they claim must apply to all of Gods actions. Gods love, in that he gave is Son to die is what they refer to as unconditional love. Even that comes with stipulations ie you must believe and follow Him to benefit otherwise you are doomed. If that is unconditional then these people dont know the meaning of the word 'unconditional'.
God loves people who in His estimation are good and righteous. This includes repentant sinners. God hates unrepentant, continuous sinners. Those he plan to wipe off the face of the earth. That is not unconditional love. That love comes with conditions.
Repent and refrain from sin, otherwise I will not love you is conditional.
Why do people insist on making statements that are clearly stupid and incorrect? My guess is that they think they are scoring brownie points with God for speaking on His behalf.
Originally posted by Rajk999You have a point there.
It should be obvious to you FF since you know some of the contents of the Bible that Gods love is NOT unconditional. Not by your definition anyhow.
The proponents of the idea that 'Gods love is unconditional' are simply taking one aspect of Gods love and making a broad conclusion which they claim must apply to all of Gods actions. Gods love, in that he g ...[text shortened]... My guess is that they think they are scoring brownie points with God for speaking on His behalf.
If I may philosophize a little: "My baby is the most beautiful thing in the whole world!" I hear mothers say. When I see the little one I see something there are plenty of in the world. I really don't think it is particular beautiful. And the one funny thing about this is that many (every) mother think the same about their offspring.
The same applies here: "Everything that is good I call my lord. Everything that is bad I call Satan. Unconditional love is good so that what I get from god. Conditional love sounds not as good so that is what satan offers." and "Don't say anything bad about god, because then you are a liar. Don't say anything good about satan because then you are a liar."
"Anyone who says something bad about my girlfriend is a liar. Anyone who says something good (but not too good) about my girlfriend is my friend."
Perhaps this is the solution of this paradox: Loyalty!
Originally posted by yoctobyteYour comprehension of God is deep and beautiful. Peace be with you friend, it is because of this and much more i chose to tell you what i did.
You read too deep my friend into something that is not there. To start, I don't see your remarks towards me as criticizing, I have no hard feelings by anything you say and I surely am not insulted by any of your comments... I don't even know you. I would think there should be a relationship in place to feel the sting of another's words, especially from s ...[text shortened]... here, you now just need to open you eyes and see them, you have to want to see them.
Regards.
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Originally posted by PudgenikI would agree if he could resolve the paradox "Gods love is unconditional, provided you don't sin."
Your comprehension of God is deep and beautiful. Peace be with you friend, it is because of this and much more i chose to tell you what i did.
Many christians settle with the answers like "Don't bother", "God did it that way", "Gods ways are mysterious" and so on. That's why the christian ideology never (I repeat: never) can be considered a science.
What if a scientist was asked the question "From where did the moon come?" and delivered the answer "Don't bother", "God made it there", or "Well, it is a mystery and we should treat it that way", what would it say about that scientist?
When I ask about what soul is, how to resolve this or that paradox, about gods love, about how Noas ark isn't seaworthy and such - I get insults back, I get litanies back, I get strange bible refs back. All with the message of "Don't bother", "Don't think", "Just accept".
Bottom line - I don't think his comprehension of God is really deep and beautiful. If his comprehension is considered deep and beautiful, then the whole christian religion is shallow and dull.
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Originally posted by FabianFnasMonsignor Charles Pope is a Catholic Priest and is giving this explanation in reference to the Christian religion and not strickly on individual opinions.
This is not about individual opinions. This is about the view of the christian religion.
Can something be conditional at the same time as it is unconditional?
Can gods love be conditional for some christians and unconditional for other christians and if so, can the two groups simultaneously be right?
I find this as one of the paradoxes in the christian religion.
The point the priest is making is that from God's point of view, God gives His love unconditionally, but from your point of view, you have to give up sin to accept His love. God hates sin, but loves the sinner.
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Originally posted by RJHindsIn the same posting you confirm the paradox.
Monsignor Charles Pope is a Catholic Priest and is giving this explanation in reference to the Christian religion and not strickly on individual opinions.
The point the priest is making is that from God's point of view, God gives His love unconditionally, but from your point of view, you have to give up sin to accept His love. God hates sin, but loves the sinner.
"God loves unconditionally" and "you have to give up sin" to achieve his love.
Well done! Good boy!
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Originally posted by FabianFnasHow is that a paradox? Is it because both statements are true?
In the same posting you confirm the paradox.
"God loves unconditionally" and "you have to give up sin" to achieve his love.
Well done! Good boy!
Is the following statement also a paradox?
God hates sin, but loves the sinner.